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Black Lives Matter


jyoung
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2 minutes ago, MEGATRONICMEATWAGON said:

So, you really DO agree that there is systemic racism against white people for driving under the influence of alcohol? Becuase that literally does happen as well, according to your logic. Oh, Christ. 

Also, if you think all the data from all the police departments in all the counties and states has been manipulated and thousands of black men are being arrested for raping women - at five times the rate of their population - then please present your evidence to the world. This is your chance. This is your chance to prove it.

Well, let me know the conviction rates and get back to me. Theres a good documentary called the 13th which will educate you on systematic racism.

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32 minutes ago, MEGATRONICMEATWAGON said:

For example, 53% of all murders are committed by black people. That's just a fact. Is is "systemic racism" that's making them go out and kill people? Plenty of people of all colours are poor and disadvantaged, so why is 13.5% of the population so overly-represented? It's got nothing to do with racism.

I am not qualified to research and understand or even get close to presenting the counter argument here. Likewise I'd be surprised if you're qualified since very few are. As an example, I just looked at  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_crime_in_the_United_States and I can't even begin to read all the literature and gain an understanding.

What I do know is this, reading your paragraph here utterly stinks, and you should have a serious word with yourself.

Have a good long think about the bias that maybe not you, but others could take away from such a statement. Let me know if it helps solve or helps inflame the situation.

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8 minutes ago, zahidf said:

but you are victim blaming. Why is his background important?

Wow, you are incredibly obtuse. Did you read my first comment OR my second comment? I AM NOT VICTIM BLAMING. 

I said clearly, GF did NOT deserve to die. I said I found it a sham that he is heralded as a hero, because his life was anything but heroic. I don't know how many times I can repeat myself.

During the protests a man named David Dorn was also killed by looters. He was 74 years old and was a veteran of the police. He was killed defending a shop from looters who cowardly shot and killed him. BLM would prefer to represent GF than David Dorn. 

 

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2 minutes ago, zahidf said:

Well, let me know the conviction rates and get back to me. Theres a good documentary called the 13th which will educate you on systematic racism.

And here is a good article dismantling the documentary 13th.

https://medium.com/@xenocryptsite/ava-duvernays-13th-and-documentary-as-advocacy-some-factual-issues-92e50b250d0

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1 hour ago, Copperface said:

Nope, due to your own words you obviously do want to understand or listen to, or be educated in any alternative viewpoints.: "Don't even begin to argue with me" (see above) so pointless getting dragged into circular arguments.

"I used to have a bad coke habit. I never went off like that though, and nor have I seen anybody I know who takes it do such a thing. That said, if you over use it you can get paranoid and make up loads of shit in your head, which has no bearing to reality. Well, that's my experience in any case." A further quote of yours.....maybe what you thought was happening, sort of well, wasn't, or was somewhat embellished or recalled through a certain prism?

I will not be 'educating you further' (love a bit of passive aggression) and the last thing I will be doing is expanding further on my past on a public forum for many reasons (one of which is that I'm sure you would lose your shit).

As to the Lammy Review, you cannot deny or disagree with most of it . But nowhere does it address so called police racism in the UK . That was not part of the terms of reference in 2017. What it does do is address the whole systemic and structural racism issue within society, reflected in the criminal justice system. 

Just noticed that you seem to be conflating 'institutional racism' with 'racism within an institution' - very different things but I'll let you research that.

Which is precisely the point I was making earlier in this thread. 

When the level of discourse reverts to phrases such as "If you are neutral in situations of injustice then you have chosen the side of the oppressor" that sounds as if it has been lifted straight off a crap placard made up by a naive first year student in post colonial studies from a third rate uni -  you have to laugh.

So my opinion remains unchanged, the BLM movement is great and long overdue and I sincerely hope that public opinion changes society,  BLM as an organisation are nuts, adding a confusing soup of Marxist and anarchist aspirations. The feral elements who attach themselves to the BLM  movement just to go at it are nothing but violent criminals who could not give a damn about BLM objectives. The 'football lads' and many of the  'veterans' are no different, violent reactionary twats who cannot be separated and many of whom are as thick as mince and just out for a fight..

That said, I'd quite happily sit down with you with a cider in hand and I'm sure we'd get along fine. 

I meet all sorts of people at G and sit and chat shit with them and it is not beyond the realms of possibility that this may have already happened.

 

That's me out.

I'm too sesh damaged after the weekend to be able to think straight.

That said, I accept the contents of your post. I guess I should, as ever, not posted whilst completely off my nut - that happens, and I'll freely admit its not very helpful, on reflection.

Not sure about the Marxist thing, but agree that the anarchists thing is just a side show, which I'm sure that the BLM movement could do without. It's just lucky, so far, that the arsonists haven't come out to play, riding on the back of the BLM movement.

 

 

Edited by Yoghurt on a Stick
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1 minute ago, Yoghurt on a Stick said:

I'm too sesh damaged after the weekend to be able to think straight.

That said, I accept the contents of your post. I guess I should, as ever, not posted whilst completely off my nut - that happens, and I'll freely admit its not very helpful, on reflection.

Not sure about the Marxist thing, but agree that the anarchists thing is just a side show, which I'm sure that the BLM movement could do without. It's just lucky, so far, that the arsonists haven't come out to play, riding on the back of the BLM movement.

 

So, maybe meet at the bus next year then and slap a cider down?

😎

 

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4 minutes ago, hfuhruhurr said:

I am not qualified to research and understand or even get close to presenting the counter argument here. Likewise I'd be surprised if you're qualified since very few are. As an example, I just looked at  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_crime_in_the_United_States and I can't even begin to read all the literature and gain an understanding.

What I do know is this, reading your paragraph here utterly stinks, and you should have a serious word with yourself.

Have a good long think about the bias that maybe not you, but others could take away from such a statement. Let me know if it helps solve or helps inflame the situation.

Thanks. I had a serious word with myself and I said I was doing a great job. Your attitude also stinks if all you've got is insults. 

Go watch Larry Elder explain it. He's a black conservative and regularly gets called an Uncle Tom, A Choc Ice (black on the outside, white on the inside), and a coon for his views from other black people (people who call themselves the tolerant left). He has all the facts. BLM just have feelings.
 

 

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16 minutes ago, Homer said:

The guy who weed by the plaque got 14 days in prison, from the BBC:

"Prosecutor Michael Mallon said Banks, a Tottenham Hotspur fan, was in central London to "protect statues", but admitted he did not know which statues."

Jesus Christ. The level of intelligence among these people is staggering. 

Two pictures from the same weekend, one of the guy carrying the white bloke to safety and this bloke having a wazz on the plaque pretty much sum up the entire issue.

Edited by jparx
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59 minutes ago, Copperface said:

So, maybe meet at the bus next year then and slap a cider down?

😎

 

That sounds very appealing. Very appealing indeed. However, I have to all intents and purposes hung up my Glastonbury Festival spurs. That said, I do reckon that there's one last Glastonbury fandango in me, and if I'm to do it all all, it should be next year. I've not been monitoring the ticket situation, so don't know if the people who got tickets for this year are allowed them for next year. It would seem fair to me that they would take preference, but I simply don't know if this is the case or not.

My favourite festival now is The Landed Festival in Wales. They actually offered me free tickets to this years event, but like most other festivals, they had to cancel - boo hoo!

I do love Glastonbury festival though. It has given me some of the sweetest moments in my life. It has, no doubt, been much better than some 14 night holidays abroad that I have been on. It has provided me, and many others, with the ability to go from 0 to 100 miles an hour not caring about the outside world in such a phenomenally short amount of time, that had it been a car Jeremoney Clarkson would be singing it's praises from the hill tops. Am I allowed right now to state that it is my opinion that that bloke is the very essence of a bell end personified? Oh well, I've said it now - publish and be damned etc!

I've no beef with you mate, so would gladly meet up for a pint of cider with you. I think most of us are singing from the same hymn sheet in any case. :)

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1 hour ago, jparx said:

Jesus Christ. The level of intelligence among these people is staggering. 

Two pictures from the same weekend, one of the guy carrying the white bloke to safety and this bloke having a wazz on the plaque pretty much sum up the entire issue.

Sorry, I don't mean to pick you out from many commenters on here but you could take any number of pictures and create a "this encapsulates the entire two movements'" narrative. 

Policewoman smashing her head into a traffic light because someone fired a flare gun at her horse vs BLM graffitiing a statue. 

White man being surrounded by black people and then being jumped from behind vs same white man being saved by police officers.

Black conservatives being called Uncle Tom's vs BLM supremacists.

 

The white guy who was being carried could very easily have been a BLM supporter himself, ppl just don't know. We need to stop looking for simple narratives in pictures or soundbites.

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If you're focusing on George Floyd, you're missing the entire point. 

If you think this isnt about racism and systemic racism, ask yourself why you wont believe millions of people when they tell you their experience. 

This isnt about you dude, best to quit while you're still only a few miles behind. 

Look at the system of white supremacy in place. Look at the prison system and ask yourself why it exists how it does in America. Ask yourself why you're defending someone who murdered someone. Ask yourself why you percieve George Floyd as less than innocent when the man who murdered him has a history of violence and murder. Then, stop talking tor a bit because yes, the color or your skin does make your OPINION less valid on an experience you've never had and obviously don't understand. 

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4 hours ago, zahidf said:

Well, let me know the conviction rates and get back to me. Theres a good documentary called the 13th which will educate you on systematic racism.

 The 13th was interesting but perhaps raised more questions than it answered.

 

Incidentally, whatever you feel about the rights or wrongs, you have to have a chuckle about the below purely from a slapstick point of view:

 

Edited by Copperface
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17 hours ago, MEGATRONICMEATWAGON said:

Fourthly, I often see and hear people explain that police kill black men far more than any other group when you factor in that they're only 6.5% of the population. This is true, UNLESS you factor in that they are WAAAAYYYY more likely to come into contact with police. The FBI keeps data on arrests and incidents and it is free to download and view yourselves. They keep data on ethnicity and where it happened, what weapon etc was used. You can view the stats here from 2016. 
https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2016/crime-in-the-u.s.-2016/topic-pages/tables/table-21

You can see from the data collected that black people are OVER-represented in almost all crimes. Homicides for example. 52% of all murders come from 13.5% of the population. Carrying illegal weapons - 42%. Rape - 29%. Do you really think it is systemic racism that is telling black people (mostly black men) to go out and murder, carry weapons, and rape women at such high numbers? If you do, I would love to know how. Sadly though, if black men and women commit crimes at such a higher rate of numbers than other groups, is it any wonder they have more contact with police and are more likely to be a victim of police-related deaths?

So your main argument here is black people commit more crimes so of course they are murdered more by the police.

I've two issues with this, firstly you don't seem to be interested in why black people are committing disproportionately more crimes, I would suggest it is because black people are more likely to be poor in a system that doesn't care for the poor. Why are black people more likely to be poor? I suggest that might be systemic racism. I struggle to come up with another reason.

Secondly you seem quite blasé about the fact that having more dealings with police should lead to more murders. Why are the police happy to murder people, with colleagues watching on, without being arrested unless there are demonstrations. If you say the police have more interactions with black people then I'd say having a murderous police force is systematically racist. It doesn't matter if the individual police are killing people because they are black or because they are criminals the fact that the system puts more black people in contact with a police force that has a shocking disregard for life is an example of how a system is racist.

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18 hours ago, MEGATRONICMEATWAGON said:

You can see in the graph below that you are twice as likely to be killed by a black person if you are white, than a white person is to kill a black person, which is phenomenal when you take into account that the white pop in the USA is about 66% and the black pop is about 13.5%.

Is that what the graph shows? If we take an average of that graph of approximately 500 whites killed by blacks to 250 blacks killed by whites. That means given the population of the US is 328 million and your demographic make up of 66% and 13.5% then your average white person has a 1 in 433,000 chance of being murdered by a black person where if you are black you have a 1 in 177,000 chance of being murdered by a white person. So you are twice as likely to be killed by a white person if you are black then by a black person if you are white quite the opposite of what you were saying. I don't think those numbers are particularly revealing grabbing at random stats rarely is but they definitely don't say what you are saying they say.

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17 hours ago, MEGATRONICMEATWAGON said:

The fact that black people are stopped more is because they commit far more crimes. 

[to be clear, I'm talking about the UK tho I don't doubt it's the same for the USA too]

Just for a minute I'm going to accept the idea that "black people commit far more crimes", which is your takeaway from the stats you've chosen to concentrate on.

However, it's also - statistically - the case that when a black person 'enters' the criminal justice system via contact with the police (being stopped &/or arrested)...

- (with everything else being equal) they're more likely to be charged with a crime than a white person.
- (with everything else being equal) the crime is more likely to be pursued by the prosecuting authorities than for a white person.
- (with everything else being equal) the crime is more likely to go to court than for a white person.
- (with everything else being equal) the rate of conviction is higher than for a white person.
- (with everything else being equal) the sentence is likely to be more harsh than for a white person.

You can find all of this stuff within stats too - and that cannot be because of the reason you give.

You can also find all of the same for women. Is that because they commit more crime than men? Or might other things be at play....?

If you really want to be led by the stats, you need to find better stats, stats that challenge your preconceptions and prejudices rather than re-enforce them. ;) 

Edited by Neil
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