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Black Lives Matter


jyoung
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6 minutes ago, Mr.Tease said:

That was my exact reaction your post, I appreciate it was nerve racking for you and I know there was no malice intentended, but for a lot of BAME people like myself it's maddening to read stuff like that because you don't realise what you don't know, and instead seem to think you're an expert on the issue. Honestly it comes across like this:

 

Also, I am not trying to "teach" black people about racism. I am trying to offer insight into a delicate situation. Do you have evidence that Chauvin is a racist and he did this because he hates black people? He certainly doesn't mind working with black people considering he's been in the police force 20 years and no doubt worked with tonnes of black people.

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10 minutes ago, MEGATRONICMEATWAGON said:

Okay, thanks for that information. I didn't know they actually knew each other from before. If they did know one another and they had some bad blood, that could explain it. I have no idea why Chauvin would keep his knee on GF's neck for so long. The video was horrible to watch. It still doesn't justify BLM's calls of racism, but I appreciate you letting me know.

Don't think it's been established they definitely knew each other but it seems likely given they worked at the same place. There clearly is a racist undercurrent in america but there is much more going on as well, I mentioned earlier in this thread the militaristic nature of the police you also have a poor judicial system and the use of private prisons which clearly forms a conflict of interest, (more prisoners = more profit), the whole criminal justice system in america needs an overhaul but that would be a mammoth task. Pulling down statues is unlikely to solve anything.

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14 minutes ago, Mr.Tease said:

That was my exact reaction your post, I appreciate it was nerve racking for you and I know there was no malice intentended, but for a lot of BAME people like myself it's maddening to read stuff like that because you don't realise what you don't know, and instead seem to think you're an expert on the issue. Honestly it comes across like this:

 

Your comment "You should get yourself a job as a teacher telling black people about racism" reads as - shut up non-BAME person (aka a white person). Some might see that comment itself as racist. Some might also see your framing of the situation as "only BAME people suffer racism" as equally racist. Just a thought. 

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16 hours ago, Yoghurt on a Stick said:

I would suggest you start at the beginning. I find it interesting to be informed that you are no stranger to law enforcement, yet would appear to proffer that racism doesn't exist within that institution. I know full well it does. I know full well how corrupt they can be also. Why weren't you exposed to that? That's interesting. Feel free to educate me on that front, as I like to be educated. 

 

Nope, due to your own words you obviously do want to understand or listen to, or be educated in any alternative viewpoints.: "Don't even begin to argue with me" (see above) so pointless getting dragged into circular arguments.

"I used to have a bad coke habit. I never went off like that though, and nor have I seen anybody I know who takes it do such a thing. That said, if you over use it you can get paranoid and make up loads of shit in your head, which has no bearing to reality. Well, that's my experience in any case." A further quote of yours.....maybe what you thought was happening, sort of well, wasn't, or was somewhat embellished or recalled through a certain prism?

I will not be 'educating you further' (love a bit of passive aggression) and the last thing I will be doing is expanding further on my past on a public forum for many reasons (one of which is that I'm sure you would lose your shit).

As to the Lammy Review, you cannot deny or disagree with most of it . But nowhere does it address so called police racism in the UK . That was not part of the terms of reference in 2017. What it does do is address the whole systemic and structural racism issue within society, reflected in the criminal justice system. 

Just noticed that you seem to be conflating 'institutional racism' with 'racism within an institution' - very different things but I'll let you research that.

Which is precisely the point I was making earlier in this thread. 

When the level of discourse reverts to phrases such as "If you are neutral in situations of injustice then you have chosen the side of the oppressor" that sounds as if it has been lifted straight off a crap placard made up by a naive first year student in post colonial studies from a third rate uni -  you have to laugh.

So my opinion remains unchanged, the BLM movement is great and long overdue and I sincerely hope that public opinion changes society,  BLM as an organisation are nuts, adding a confusing soup of Marxist and anarchist aspirations. The feral elements who attach themselves to the BLM  movement just to go at it are nothing but violent criminals who could not give a damn about BLM objectives. The 'football lads' and many of the  'veterans' are no different, violent reactionary twats who cannot be separated and many of whom are as thick as mince and just out for a fight..

That said, I'd quite happily sit down with you with a cider in hand and I'm sure we'd get along fine. 

I meet all sorts of people at G and sit and chat shit with them and it is not beyond the realms of possibility that this may have already happened.

 

That's me out.

Edited by Copperface
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4 minutes ago, MEGATRONICMEATWAGON said:

Also, I am not trying to "teach" black people about racism. I am trying to offer insight into a delicate situation. Do you have evidence that Chauvin is a racist and he did this because he hates black people? He certainly doesn't mind working with black people considering he's been in the police force 20 years and no doubt worked with tonnes of black people.

Lots to unpack from your posts and sadly really do not have the time to get into it a lot. I like the idea that you are however offering "insight" which straight away suggests that other like Mr Tease are not, which is slightly arrogant, insight does suggest something more than reading stuff off the internet. There is a lot to really dig into and learn. as a white person I certainly know I need to understand more, however I do understand that the system is loaded in one direction. This situation certainly gives the opportunity to open our ears, ask questions and gain a greater understanding.

Pumping out stats does not really tell a whole story at all, they generally never do and can be used in various ways.

Crimes and gang Violence is always interesting. we have to look deeper at these things and see that if you disadvantage a set of people for years that will have consequences, also you can look at the stats and say wow, white people are getting away with a lot more I wonder why

anyway - said I would not get into it as it goes around and around on forums which never helps then we get defensive and nothing moves on.

 

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7 minutes ago, fred quimby said:

Lots to unpack from your posts and sadly really do not have the time to get into it a lot. I like the idea that you are however offering "insight" which straight away suggests that other like Mr Tease are not, which is slightly arrogant, insight does suggest something more than reading stuff off the internet. There is a lot to really dig into and learn. as a white person I certainly know I need to understand more, however I do understand that the system is loaded in one direction. This situation certainly gives the opportunity to open our ears, ask questions and gain a greater understanding.

Pumping out stats does not really tell a whole story at all, they generally never do and can be used in various ways.

Crimes and gang Violence is always interesting. we have to look deeper at these things and see that if you disadvantage a set of people for years that will have consequences, also you can look at the stats and say wow, white people are getting away with a lot more I wonder why

anyway - said I would not get into it as it goes around and around on forums which never helps then we get defensive and nothing moves on.

 

That's another complaint I often here. Focusing on my tone or character, rather than the stats themselves. I do not mean to sound arrogant, but that's the disadvantage of writing and not speaking.

You could certainly say that disadvantaging people for so long can have a detrimental affect, but there are several million poor and disadvantaged whites and Hispanics who are not shooting, raping and killing at the same rate. That would suggest there is some kind of "selective racism" where the police (or just white people?) hate black people more than other non-white groups. I just don't buy it. You can also look at the places with the most gang violence. Chicago for example has been a Democrat city for about 100 years (they regularly vote 80% Dems in elections), yet their black community through the "disadvantaged" logic would suggest that the Democrats are not helping them. 

Like I said before, Jim Crow was removed in the 1960s. Redlining went in the 80s, forty years ago. Why have they not stopped the violence and murders and rapes in innercities? Also, black single-parents are at about 70% nationally - also a result of Democratic policies trying to tie people to the Democrats by giving them benefits which they become to rely on.

I'm definitely NOT saying that there is some kind of inherent DNA to crime, but there is clearly a difference between cultures at play. Asian people for centuries were disadvantaged in the USA, yet they are doing better than anyone else. Could it be because they value family life and focus on education? I would say yes. Why is everything bad that happens explained away as simple racism? Obviously racism still exists and we should try and get rid of it, but saying mottos like "Black Lives Matter", which exclude all other lives, isn't the way forward, and the stats don't support the argument that there is come kind of proactive group of police officers targeting black people randomly in the street just bc of their skin colour. It's simply a false narrative.

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31 minutes ago, Copperface said:

When the level of discourse reverts to phrases such as "If you are neutral in situations of injustice then you have chosen the side of the oppressor" that sounds as if it has been lifted straight off a crap placard made up by a naive first year student in post colonial studies from a third rate uni -  you have to laugh.

It really wouldn't have taken you more than 20 seconds to Google that phrase.

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I'm sorry I still don't understand BLM , what it is they actually want to see and what laws are discriminatory specifically against black people .

 

My 16 year old GS is mixed race his other Nan is afro Caribbean , we've had this conversation this past week and she finds the whole thing distasteful and has not helped one little bit, if anything the opposite..She has a good job and has never encountered racism in her work or socially , she has not been held back in any way because she is black.

My GS has the same opportunities open to him as any other teenager , he does well at school , plays rugby and tbh the colour of his skin has never  been a problem, he is around kids of all races so none of his particular year group see any problems at all which is how it should be 

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Blimey.

This has escalated.  Come on folks.  Tone it down a little. 

Focus on the weather and what it would have been like getting the Pilton Well and rainfall in jar updates as we are on the final approach..

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8 minutes ago, Winslow Leach said:

It really wouldn't have taken you more than 20 seconds to Google that phrase.

Nope, I know where it originated. It's the vicarious usage of a trite quote that was fine in its original context, but on some bizarre internet discussion comes across as pretentious and pompous and reminiscent of a Young Ones episode.

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18 minutes ago, MEGATRONICMEATWAGON said:

 and the stats don't support the argument that there is come kind of proactive group of police officers targeting black people randomly in the street just bc of their skin colour. It's simply a false narrative.

Oddly I have had experience when with black friends where they have been stopped and questioned and I have had nothing. Why, I am with them and the same crowd doing the same thing.

Have a friend who's husband is a black and  American. They lived here for a while. When they went back to the states the husband of my fiend (who is white) said that he would need to drive as they would keep being stopped. Said friend did this and did not get stopped but after a while wanted to see what happened. Driving the same area in one week they got stopped 3 times. They would also not go out after a certain time as they would be stopped more

 

25 minutes ago, MEGATRONICMEATWAGON said:

That's another complaint I often here. Focusing on my tone or character, rather than the stats themselves. I do not mean to sound arrogant, but that's the disadvantage of writing and not speaking.

 

Yes certainly true hence my previous point, never translates well, and things move fast sometimes. Always best to sit down and have a chat on these kind of subjects ,the tone of voice is always important and never really comes across here.

 

Just stay open minded and keep listening and keep getting informed different things can change your maind. I will do the same

 

one last thing. Democrats and Republicans - does not matter at all really. It is the whole system really

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Isn't the fact that the black experience is very much that they are stopped and searched A LOT more than their white co-countrymen? the search and stop stats bear this out.

 

In terms of the American experience, the amount of white policemen who kill black people and who get away with it is VERY clear. Even when its on camera, theyll get away with it

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1 hour ago, MEGATRONICMEATWAGON said:

Okay, thanks for that information. I didn't know they actually knew each other from before. If they did know one another and they had some bad blood, that could explain it. I have no idea why Chauvin would keep his knee on GF's neck for so long. The video was horrible to watch. It still doesn't justify BLM's calls of racism, but I appreciate you letting me know.

Firstly, the reason the protests started was because Chauvin WASNT going to be charged. He was going to get away with it until the protests

Secondly, Floyd had a forged banknote on him. He didn't deserve to die because of it. I notice you're doing a character assassination of him

Thirdly, the officer has previous complaints against him for violence towards black people ( which isn't available to view now because of the forthcoming Trial). Even if the murder wasn't racists, the fact he was going to get away with it is because of an inherently racist system which lets police officers get away with black murder. 

 

 

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5 minutes ago, zahidf said:

Isn't the fact that the black experience is very much that they are stopped and searched A LOT more than their white co-countrymen? the searhc and stop stats bear this out.

 

In terms of the American experience, the amount of white policemen who kill black people and who get away with it is VERY clear. 

 

8 minutes ago, fred quimby said:

Oddly I have had experience when with black friends where they have been stopped and questioned and I have had nothing. Why, I am with them and the same crowd doing the same thing.

Have a friend who's husband is a black and  American. They lived here for a while. When they went back to the states the husband of my fiend (who is white) said that he would need to drive as they would keep being stopped. Said friend did this and did not get stopped but after a while wanted to see what happened. Driving the same area in one week they got stopped 3 times. They would also not go out after a certain time as they would be stopped more

The fact that black people are stopped more is because they commit far more crimes. The FBI statistics I linked to earlier shows this. I'll link it again for you - 

https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2016/crime-in-the-u.s.-2016/topic-pages/tables/table-21

It's an amazing resource.

For example, 53% of all murders are committed by black people. That's just a fact. Is is "systemic racism" that's making them go out and kill people? Plenty of people of all colours are poor and disadvantaged, so why is 13.5% of the population so overly-represented? It's got nothing to do with racism. The reason black people get stopped more is because the police are looking for criminals who fit the description, and one of those descriptions is their race. Do you expect the police to just not do their job?

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2 minutes ago, MEGATRONICMEATWAGON said:

 

The fact that black people are stopped more is because they commit far more crimes. The FBI statistics I linked to earlier shows this. I'll link it again for you - 

https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2016/crime-in-the-u.s.-2016/topic-pages/tables/table-21

It's an amazing resource.

For example, 53% of all murders are committed by black people. That's just a fact. Is is "systemic racism" that's making them go out and kill people? Plenty of people of all colours are poor and disadvantaged, so why is 13.5% of the population so overly-represented? It's got nothing to do with racism. The reason black people get stopped more is because the police are looking for criminals who fit the description, and one of those descriptions is their race. Do you expect the police to just not do their job?

Total arrests, not convictions. 

So... A black person is more disproportionately likely to be arrested for a crime than a white person? proving the point really. 

 

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5 minutes ago, zahidf said:

Firstly, the reason the protests started was because Chauvin WASNT going to be charged. He was going to get away with it until the protests

Secondly, Floyd had a forged banknote on him. He didn't deserve to die because of it. I notice you're doing a character assassination of him

Thirdly, the officer has previous complaints against him for violence towards black people ( which isn't available to view now because of the forthcoming Trial). Even if the murder wasn't racists, the fact he was going to get away with it is because of an inherently racist system which lets police officers get away with black murder. 

 

 

No, no, no. I will not let you misrepresent what I said. I said it's nonsense that GF is held as a hero or a martyr by BLM. His life was anything but heroic. I did NOT say that he deserved to die because of it. That's a horrendous accusation when I clearly did not say that. Go and re-read my post again.

Also, it's funny how you complain about my apparent "character assassination" (which I didn't do), then you go on to try and do the same against Chauvin.

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16 minutes ago, zahidf said:

Total arrests, not convictions. 

So... A black person is more disproportionately likely to be arrested for a crime than a white person? proving the point really. 

 

Wow, you will literally go to any low to try and be correct. Your logic is flawed. If you scroll down to alcohol offences you can see the only ones where white people are over-represented. Are you saying (with your logic) that police are going out and tracking down white people to arrest them for driving under the influence and then not convicting them of that crime? Are you saying there is "systemic racism" against white people of driving whilst drunk? Give me a break.

Are you saying that black men are being arrested for raping people at FAR higher rates than their population, because the people who were raped just wanted to blame a black person? The victims of rape just tell the police that is black men doing the assaults, because, meh, they hate black people?

 

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6 minutes ago, MEGATRONICMEATWAGON said:

Wow, you will literally go to any low to try and be correct. Your logic is flawed. If you scroll down to alcohol offences you can see the only ones where white people are over-represented. Are you saying (with your logic) that police are going out and tracking down white people to arrest them for driving under the influence and then not convicting them of that crime? Are you saying there is "systemic racism" against white people of driving whilst drunk? Give me a break.

Are you saying that black men are being arrested for raping people at FAR higher rates than their population, because the people who were raped just wanted to blame a black person? The victims of rape just tell the police that is black men doing the assaults, because, meh, they hate black people?

 

Well yes that does happen. Its literally something which happens. 

 

https://theundefeated.com/features/being-black-in-a-world-where-white-lies-matter/

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20 minutes ago, MEGATRONICMEATWAGON said:

No, no, no. I will not let you misrepresent what I said. I said it's nonsense that GF is held as a hero or a martyr by BLM. His life was anything but heroic. I did NOT say that he deserved to die because of it. That's a horrendous accusation when I clearly did not say that. Go and re-read my post again.

Also, it's funny how you complain about my apparent "character assassination" (which I didn't do), then you go on to try and do the same against Chauvin.

but you are victim blaming. Why is his background important?

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2 minutes ago, zahidf said:

Well yes that does happen. Its literally something which happens. 

 

https://theundefeated.com/features/being-black-in-a-world-where-white-lies-matter/

So, you really DO agree that there is systemic racism against white people for driving under the influence of alcohol? Becuase that literally does happen as well, according to your logic. Oh, Christ. 

Also, if you think all the data from all the police departments in all the counties and states has been manipulated and thousands of black men are being arrested for raping women - at five times the rate of their population - then please present your evidence to the world. This is your chance. This is your chance to prove it.

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