Black Lives Matter

[zahidf]

50 minutes ago, Copperface said:

Who stated there was no racism? It is endemic in society, societal structures, institutions, norms and views and the demographics that result from that. What is happening at this time is a welcome step forward with much further to go. Maybe the right targets for such opprobrium need to be considered. 

 

Your points re deaths following police contact or, as you put it, in custody,  maybe proves a point in itself.

Not sure what you mean by 'stopped under the anti covid laws'.

 

.

 

 

As In fined and stopped for being out the house without good reason 

[Copperface]

13 minutes ago, zahidf said:

As In fined and stopped for being out the house without good reason 

No, you mean fined.

As far as I know no stop data is recorded in these cases with ethnicity.

And those fines are issued after a policy of engage and explain, finally followed by enforcement if necessary. 

And then we launch into the never ending debate of societal division and inequality, why people are disproportionately more likely to find themselves in such situations and accepting certain norms,  and, in certain areas and amongst various demographics, willingness to accept any authority, whether that be police, politicians, local council, social services etc. Quite often linked intrinsically to criminality on various levels and a general sense of disenfranchisement and inequality of treatment.

 

 

Edited June 10, 2020 by Copperface

[zahidf]

17 minutes ago, Copperface said:

No, you mean fined.

As far as I know no stop data is recorded in these cases with ethnicity.

And those fines are issued after a policy of engage and explain, finally followed by enforcement if necessary. 

And then we launch into the never ending debate of societal division and inequality, why people are disproportionately more likely to find themselves in such situations and accepting certain norms,  and, in certain areas and amongst various demographics, willingness to accept any authority, whether that be police, politicians, local council, social services etc. Quite often linked intrinsically to criminality on various levels and a general sense of disenfranchisement and inequality of treatment.

 

 

Well no, it's probably because the police stop and search black people more. Always have, still do

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/jun/03/met-police-twice-as-likely-to-fine-black-people-over-lockdown-breaches-research

[Copperface]

1 minute ago, zahidf said:

Well no, it's probably because the police stop and search black people more. Always have, still do

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/jun/03/met-police-twice-as-likely-to-fine-black-people-over-lockdown-breaches-research

True.

Why?

The reasons for this are likely to be complex and reflect a range of factors. This includes interactions between the areas subject to significant proactive policing activity targeting crime hotspots and both the variation in the age profile and geographical distribution of ethnic groups in London

[stuartbert two hats]

16 minutes ago, Copperface said:

True.

Why?

The reasons for this are likely to be complex and reflect a range of factors. This includes interactions between the areas subject to significant proactive policing activity targeting crime hotspots and both the variation in the age profile and geographical distribution of ethnic groups in London

And racism

[zahidf]

UK policing

 

 

[Thunderstruck]

8 hours ago, zahidf said:

UK policing

 

 

When is this from? I guess it comes down to the question of how they are profiling people...I guess race identifiers have to be used to detect certain crimes. BUT in this case he seems to have simply stopped a guy because he's black and in a predominantly white area.

If there had been a report of a drug dealer matching his description I'd be ok with him being stopped but this was surely a great example of unconscious bias? He's basically been stopped for being black...and drug dealers might be black.

[Thunderstruck]

On 6/9/2020 at 7:31 PM, zahidf said:

Another one bites the dust

 

I really hope they preserve these and put them in a museum. It would be fascinating to learn about the history of these relics that I pay absolutely no attention to generally. I bet when I've been to places as a tourist I've taken pictures of racist statues not even knowing it! 😆

[Mr.Tease]

A Twitter user named Scott Castaneda of Rochester Hills achieved an impressive Ratio on Tuesday when he tweeted at Tom Morello, guitarist of political rap-rock band Rage Against the Machine, telling him to stay out of politics. 
 

"I use to be a fan until your political opinions come out," Castaneda tweeted. "Music is my sanctuary and the last thing I want to hear is political bs when i’m listening to music. As far as i’m concerned you and Pink are completely done. Keep running your mouth and ruining your fan base." 

https://www.metrotimes.com/city-slang/archives/2020/06/10/michigan-man-goes-viral-after-telling-rage-against-the-machines-tom-morello-he-used-to-be-a-fan-until-he-realized-the-band-was-political

 

😂

Edited June 11, 2020 by Mr.Tease

[stuartbert two hats]

52 minutes ago, Thunderstruck said:

When is this from? I guess it comes down to the question of how they are profiling people...I guess race identifiers have to be used to detect certain crimes. BUT in this case he seems to have simply stopped a guy because he's black and in a predominantly white area.

If there had been a report of a drug dealer matching his description I'd be ok with him being stopped but this was surely a great example of unconscious bias? He's basically been stopped for being black...and drug dealers might be black.

Not particularly unconscious if he gave the colour of the man's skin as a reason.

[stuartbert two hats]

7 minutes ago, Mr.Tease said:

A Twitter user named Scott Castaneda of Rochester Hills achieved an impressive Ratio on Tuesday when he tweeted at Tom Morello, guitarist of political rap-rock band Rage Against the Machine, telling him to stay out of politics. 
 

"I use to be a fan until your political opinions come out," Castaneda tweeted. "Music is my sanctuary and the last thing I want to hear is political bs when i’m listening to music. As far as i’m concerned you and Pink are completely done. Keep running your mouth and ruining your fan base." 

https://www.metrotimes.com/city-slang/archives/2020/06/10/michigan-man-goes-viral-after-telling-rage-against-the-machines-tom-morello-he-used-to-be-a-fan-until-he-realized-the-band-was-political

 

😂

"What machine did you think he was raging against? The dishwasher?"

😁😁😁

[Matt42]

8 minutes ago, stuartbert two hats said:

Not particularly unconscious if he gave the colour of the man's skin as a reason.

If I’m understanding correctly I think it is unconscious in the fact that he can’t understand that his rationale is racist.

I am originally from the rural countryside before moving to London and I think this video pinpoints exactly how a lot of people think in the ‘less diverse’ and rural areas of the country. 
 

“I’m not racist but black people are more likely to commit crimes, be from somewhere else, have unstable homes, and only be here to cause trouble”. I know first hand of ‘country luvvies’ that won’t come to metropolitan areas because they are scared there are too many Black people.
 

I’m afraid this is unwinding centuries of systemic beliefs in people. I honestly see my place of birth as a bit of a lost cause. Attitudes like what that policeman demonstrate are shared up and down the country and I think it’s really important to bring them into the light.

 

 

Edited June 11, 2020 by Matt42

[Copperface]

10 hours ago, stuartbert two hats said:

And racism

The Betari Box in all its glory.

Stereotyped and generalised tosh. This crap is what you end up with.

 

[Copperface]

We can all start posting random videos whilst avoiding the wider socioeconomic roots of a problem in favour of cheap anecdote based sloganeering.  https://metro.co.uk/video/football-hooligans-pelt-bottles-chase-two-men-coventry-2188946/?ito=vjs-link

[Mr.Tease]

1 minute ago, Copperface said:

We can all start posting random videos whilst avoiding the wider socioeconomic roots of a problem in favour of cheap anecdote based sloganeering.  https://metro.co.uk/video/football-hooligans-pelt-bottles-chase-two-men-coventry-2188946/?ito=vjs-link

Ah yes, because before these slogans and video's great progress was being made!

[Copperface]

Just now, Mr.Tease said:

Ah yes, because before these slogans and video's great progress was being made!

Not quite sure of your point.

[Mr.Tease]

1 minute ago, Copperface said:

Not quite sure of your point.

The videos, protests and slogans are providing the impetus for change. Emotional force has driven nearly every successful social movement in history. People advocating 'quiet, mannered, rational discussions" by itself as resulting in substantial change are delusional.

[Copperface]

1 minute ago, Mr.Tease said:

The videos, protests and slogans are providing the impetus for change. Emotional force has driven nearly every successful social movement in history. People advocating 'quiet, mannered, rational discussions" by itself as resulting in substantial change are delusional.

As I thought, we agree 100%. Applies equally to the videos of the two blokes being chased by the Coventry crowd and eventually rescued by the police and the black police officer involved in the Hackney incident.

The other point is that posting random videos and spurious slogans can be used to promote multiple viewpoints.

Simply saying police are racist and the cause of all ills in society is simplistic, incorrect and agenda driven.

[stuartbert two hats]

1 hour ago, Copperface said:

The Betari Box in all its glory.

Stereotyped and generalised tosh. This crap is what you end up with.

 

What are you on about?

[stuartbert two hats]

1 hour ago, Copperface said:

As I thought, we agree 100%. Applies equally to the videos of the two blokes being chased by the Coventry crowd and eventually rescued by the police and the black police officer involved in the Hackney incident.

The other point is that posting random videos and spurious slogans can be used to promote multiple viewpoints.

Simply saying police are racist and the cause of all ills in society is simplistic, incorrect and agenda driven.

It's part of it though. Denying that doesn't help.

[Copperface]

14 minutes ago, stuartbert two hats said:

It's part of it though. Denying that doesn't help.

Doesn't help anything.

Because it's bollox.

And the previous post referencing Betari'sBox that you did not understand, perhaps that is symptomatic of why there are problems. 

[Andy0808 v5]

1 hour ago, Copperface said:

As I thought, we agree 100%. Applies equally to the videos of the two blokes being chased by the Coventry crowd and eventually rescued by the police and the black police officer involved in the Hackney incident.

The other point is that posting random videos and spurious slogans can be used to promote multiple viewpoints.

Simply saying police are racist and the cause of all ills in society is simplistic, incorrect and agenda driven.

This thread is a lost cause when it comes to actual debate around policing. The same people who spurt inclusivity, also seem to have a profound hatred of every single police officer based on a few cropped videos and interactions  they’ve had at protests. Who can’t see past their own hatred of the police or see where the problems actually stem from. 🤷🏻‍♂️

 

[zahidf]

8 minutes ago, Andy0808 v5 said:

This thread is a lost cause when it comes to actual debate around policing. The same people who spurt inclusivity, also seem to have a profound hatred of every single police officer based on a few cropped videos and interactions  they’ve had at protests. Who can’t see past their own hatred of the police or see where the problems actually stem from. 🤷🏻‍♂️

 

I dont hate the police. At the same time, its 100% fair to say that there is elements of policing in the UK ( and definitely the US) which has issues with race

[Andy0808 v5]

1 minute ago, zahidf said:

I dont hate the police. At the same time, its 100% fair to say that there is elements of policing in the UK ( and definitely the US) which has issues with race

And again, there is nobody disputing that what has happened in the US is horrendous. 
But, it’s quite easy to look at figures on policing and stop and search and immediately say ‘racism’, but the points Copperface has made in relation to all other factors around policing are completely ignored. Targeted patrols in crime hotspots for example, these areas are predominantly BAME and that’s due to years of government failings in areas unrelated to policing. 
 

Beyond that, the Wretch-32 thing that he’s going on about on Twitter at the moment. He tweeted saying something along the lines of he’s just given his son the ‘police chat’. I’m not questioning why he would need to do that, he’s obviously been failed by a system in his eyes where the only face he has for that system is the police. But, what does turning a new generation against the police do to benefit progress? It is just another youth, who feels like they could never turn to the police for help and adds resentment for a system they’re yet to need or be exposed to. 

[Copperface]

12 minutes ago, zahidf said:

I dont hate the police. At the same time, its 100% fair to say that there is elements of policing in the UK ( and definitely the US) which has issues with race

So who is disagreeing with that? Not me. And it is a part of a far, far wider endemic structural problem in Western society. Don't even start with some of the far eastern attitudes to race. 

But words matter, and lumping 'the police', 'UK police (your words), signs and chants of ACAB and so on,  into an amorphous anonymous grouping is wrong, and seemingly ignoring the elements of pure criminality and anarchism which attach themselves like leeches to movements such as BLM to confront and provoke a reaction is naive in the extreme.

I give it a week or two before parts of London are burning (depending on the weather of course) and it will have butt all to do with the unlawful killing of George Floyd. 

Edited June 11, 2020 by Copperface