When will this shit end?

[Fuzzy Afro]

4 minutes ago, Quark said:

Genuinely struggling to understand your point here.  You make it sound like it would be fair to allow us to plough ahead with no restrictions because that's what he neighbours are doing, with the result being the spike in infections that Whitty & Vallance are talking about?

Is that honestly what you're saying? We should allow infections to rocket because it's not fair that we can't go to the pub while France and Spain can?

My point is that Spain and France are supposedly six weeks ahead of us but aren’t seeing the kind of apocalyptic scenes that happened in Bergamo in the first wave, no overwhelmed health system and no huge increases in deaths. Lockdown-philes are wanting to lockdown to avoid ending up like those two countries, but I don’t see what those countries have done wrong that makes them desirable to avoid. 

[squirrelarmy]

1 minute ago, pryce said:

well if we follow spain and France who have less strict lockdown measures than we do currently then in mid oct at worst we are hitting 10,000 cases a day like they are and not 49,000 cases a day

 

spains cases are now also dropping or at least levelling off

France and Spain don’t have anywhere near the population density that we have. 
 

They also have a better climate which means they can enjoy outdoor drinking and eating for a lot longer than we can. 

[Quark]

Just now, pryce said:

well if we follow spain and France who have less strict lockdown measures than we do currently then in mid oct at worst we are hitting 10,000 cases a day like they are and not 49,000 cases a day

 

spains cases are now also dropping or at least levelling off

But even then we're accepting 10,000 cases a day as a reasonable payoff?  If we can see what's coming elsewhere and have the chance to change our approach accordingly to reduce that incoming impact as much as possible, without returning to a complete shutdown, why wouldn't we?

I mean, you can argue about the relative overall cost of a shutdown vs looser restrictions, but my question about fairness still stands. I don't see what fairness has to do with anything. None of this shit is fair.

[Freddyflintstonree]

9 minutes ago, ace56blaa said:

 

 

This really is like watching a car crash in slow motion 

[Quark]

1 minute ago, Fuzzy Afro said:

My point is that Spain and France are supposedly six weeks ahead of us but aren’t seeing the kind of apocalyptic scenes that happened in Bergamo in the first wave, no overwhelmed health system and no huge increases in deaths. Lockdown-philes are wanting to lockdown to avoid ending up like those two countries, but I don’t see what those countries have done wrong that makes them desirable to avoid. 

I know how much you want to avoid a second lockdown pal, you're made that pretty clear and I can see why when you've explained your reasons.  Fairness is just a really, really pointless concept in the context of what's going on atm.  Like I said in my reply to @pryce above you can argue the relative costs & benefits of tighter or looser as you like, but fair just doesn't come into it right now.

[Ozanne]

3 minutes ago, Quark said:

But even then we're accepting 10,000 cases a day as a reasonable payoff?  If we can see what's coming elsewhere and have the chance to change our approach accordingly to reduce that incoming impact as much as possible, without returning to a complete shutdown, why wouldn't we?

I mean, you can argue about the relative overall cost of a shutdown vs looser restrictions, but my question about fairness still stands. I don't see what fairness has to do with anything. None of this shit is fair.

It does like something that should be done if it still gives some freedoms and also can help to limit the spread. It's important to remember that in local lockdown areas people that live on their own still have the support bubble that means complete isolation if you don't have symptoms won't be like in full lockdown. 

[Quark]

What we need to see is clear messaging, a flexible but structured approach that can be deployed and updated quickly, strong leadership and empathy for those struggling.

Good luck with that!

[mcshed]

8 minutes ago, Quark said:

I know how much you want to avoid a second lockdown pal, you're made that pretty clear and I can see why when you've explained your reasons.  Fairness is just a really, really pointless concept in the context of what's going on atm.  Like I said in my reply to @pryce above you can argue the relative costs & benefits of tighter or looser as you like, but fair just doesn't come into it right now.

I think your focus on fairness is missing the point, I think he is trying to say if we are six weeks behind the likes of Spain and France and they don't see their situation as catastrophic, how can we be on the brink something catastrophic?

[squirrelarmy]

13 minutes ago, Freddyflintstonree said:

This really is like watching a car crash in slow motion 

More like watching a car crash in slow motion then seeing it reverse and have a nice long run up to do it again. 

[Quark]

Just now, mcshed said:

I think your focus on fairness is missing the point, I think he is trying to say if we are six weeks behind the likes of Spain and France and they don't see their situation as catastrophic, how can we be on the brink something catastrophic?

That's what I was trying to better understand, which I think we're at now. 

But it kind of says a lot about the state we're in when "not catastrophic" is seen as a decent starting point. I'd like to think that we can aim for better than that!

@Fuzzy Afro- not piling on you pal.  Wording and meaning is indeed one of those things I focus on, perhaps unreasonably given it's an internet forum

[Fuzzy Afro]

Just now, Quark said:

That's what I was trying to better understand, which I think we're at now. 

But it kind of says a lot about the state we're in when "not catastrophic" is seen as a decent starting point. I'd like to think that we can aim for better than that!

@Fuzzy Afro- not piling on you pal.  Wording and meaning is indeed one of those things I focus on, perhaps unreasonably given it's an internet forum

Yes sorry perhaps the “fairness” point wasn’t a great one. What I mean is France and Spain are “six weeks ahead of us” and don’t seem to be having some apocalyptic catastrophe so I’m not sure a full lockdown is necessary or proportionate. 

[steviewevie]

7 minutes ago, Fuzzy Afro said:

Yes sorry perhaps the “fairness” point wasn’t a great one. What I mean is France and Spain are “six weeks ahead of us” and don’t seem to be having some apocalyptic catastrophe so I’m not sure a full lockdown is necessary or proportionate. 

yeah, and I don't think we're going to get a full lockdown. Not yet anyway.

But we'll find out tomorrow.

[Ozanne]

I haven't read or seen anywhere, anyone suggesting we are going to have a full lockdown.

[mcshed]

3 minutes ago, Quark said:

That's what I was trying to better understand, which I think we're at now. 

But it kind of says a lot about the state we're in when "not catastrophic" is seen as a decent starting point. I'd like to think that we can aim for better than that!

@Fuzzy Afro- not piling on you pal.  Wording and meaning is indeed one of those things I focus on, perhaps unreasonably given it's an internet forum

Well I think a full lockdown is pretty catastrophic so we very much should be on the road to catastrophe before introducing that.

I suspect restrictions that will be introduced will fall short of the full lockdown we had at the start and I have honestly no idea what the correct approach is but I certainly sympathise with those who feel a return to lockdown seems disproportionate.

[steviewevie]

thing is with lockdown and restrictions, need to time it right. Last time they were late with imposing the lockdown which led to a lot of deaths.

[Quark]

Just now, mcshed said:

Well I think a full lockdown is pretty catastrophic so we very much should be on the road to catastrophe before introducing that.

I suspect restrictions that will be introduced will fall short of the full lockdown we had at the start and I have honestly no idea what the correct approach is but I certainly sympathise with those who feel a return to lockdown seems disproportionate.

Agreed - see previous on discussing the balance between costs/benefits of tighter vs looser restrictions.

Think we're all in agreement now, that's the trouble with multiple conversations on the same thread!

[Fuzzy Afro]

3 minutes ago, Ozanne said:

I haven't read or seen anywhere, anyone suggesting we are going to have a full lockdown.

I consider the loss of ability to have someone visit my home to be a lockdown.

 

 

[steviewevie]

2 minutes ago, Fuzzy Afro said:

I consider the loss of ability to have someone visit my home to be a lockdown.

 

 

well, I've been in lockdown since the start of August then.

[Ozanne]

1 minute ago, Fuzzy Afro said:

I consider the loss of ability to have someone visit my home to be a lockdown.

 

 

That's not a full lockdown though. A full lockdown involves retail and hospitality businesses being shut, schools being closed down and only being told to go out once a day for essential/medical reasons. What you are describing is a form of lockdown like they are seeing in parts of the North but no one is suggesting a full lockdown like we saw in the Spring.

[steviewevie]

5 minutes ago, Fuzzy Afro said:

I consider the loss of ability to have someone visit my home to be a lockdown.

 

 

This actually may well be one of the new restrictions tomorrow.

[Fuzzy Afro]

2 minutes ago, Ozanne said:

That's not a full lockdown though. A full lockdown involves retail and hospitality businesses being shut, schools being closed down and only being told to go out once a day for essential/medical reasons. What you are describing is a form of lockdown like they are seeing in parts of the North but no one is suggesting a full lockdown like we saw in the Spring.

Those north lockdowns are still highly restrictive and awful for mental health. I’m glad we’ve not had that down here yet but might just be a matter of time

[Fuzzy Afro]

Government minister Therese Coffey appears to confirm on twitter that pubs will remain open this weekend. 

[steviewevie]

1 minute ago, Fuzzy Afro said:

Those north lockdowns are still highly restrictive and awful for mental health. I’m glad we’ve not had that down here yet but might just be a matter of time

nah, it's been fine...you just don't follow the rules.

[steviewevie]

Peston's take...

 

[Fuzzy Afro]

Just now, steviewevie said:

nah, it's been fine...you just don't follow the rules.

I’m not in the north, I’m not subject to those rules.