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When will this shit end?


Chrisp1986

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4 minutes ago, Matt42 said:

Do you know how the media works? How stories like this get air time?

For example, show runners will be looking for people with extreme views to interview on TV as that’s what gets them clicks or views.

Picture this. You are in the offices of good morning Britain in the run up to lockdown ending. What does your show-runner boss tell you to do? Ring around the houses and find someone who will sit on TV for an hour and claim that lockdown shouldn’t end. This sort of stuff the gp laps up and eventually it starts gaining momentum.

There is no fear mongering story in things getting better and lockdown coming to an end. 

The media is full of good news stories about the success of vaccines etc...Indie Sage are always going on about how good the vaccines are. What they are dealing with is reality. SAGE are doing the same..this is where we are right now, we need more time.

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Just now, Matt42 said:

Why is it whenever people criticise indie sage people think they are also criticising real sage? 

because of the link people make that they listen to them and are directly influenced by them  maybe ? 

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43 minutes ago, zahidf said:

always opposed the timing of lockdown though, saying it took too long. 

And they've been proven right every fucking time.

Look, I'm not sure I agree with what Indie SAGE are suggesting now, but they've actually got it right every bloody time until now. Their track record is better than pretty much anyone else's. Far better than actual SAGE for that matter.

I know plenty of us on here have agreed with them in the past, and only had an issue with what they're saying now as it does seem over-cautious. But those who have consistently opposed them and disagreed that lockdowns should have happened earlier and been more stringent back in March, July, September and December 2020 really should have realised right now that they don't actually know better than Indie SAGE at all.

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3 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

Andy Burnham says need more vaccines up here, quick smart.

I've just realised something - they've told the whole of greater Manchester to only meet outdoors at short notice. Screwing over businesses and employees again. Is furlough that flexible that you can do it with rota'd staff and turn it off and on, or does somebody lose out when indoor hospitality is a lot quieter in those areas? Genuine question I don't know how it works 

Edited by efcfanwirral
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2 minutes ago, DeanoL said:

And they've been proven right every fucking time.

Look, I'm not sure I agree with what Indie SAGE are suggesting now, but they've actually got it right every bloody time until now. Their track record is better than pretty much anyone else's. Far better than actual SAGE for that matter.

I know plenty of us on here have agreed with them in the past, and only had an issue with what they're saying now as it does seem over-cautious. But those who have consistently opposed them and disagreed that lockdowns should have happened earlier and been more stringent back in March, July, September and December 2020 really should have realised right now that they don't actually know better than Indie SAGE at all.

No they havent. They were calling for schools be closed between Jan and March!

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10 minutes ago, crazyfool1 said:

so who else is whispering in the Pms ear ? is that not something that is more of concern than the stuff that people see ? 

Yes but I expect the PM to be taking into account all sorts of advice. He’s got elected representatives at the other extreme end of the debate to Independent SAGE, he’s got SAGE and subsidiary bodies, the Treasury, the Cabinet and public opinion to a degree.
 

It’s hard to see the value of a BTEC version of SAGE that are free to dish out advice without any regard to the consequences or any of the restrictions on Media briefing that apply (or should apply) to official Government bodies. Combine that with the phenomenal amount of coverage they’re given by News sources/Social Media posters that are also anti-Government and the fearful, febrile emotions of some of the public and they have a relevance and impact much greater than they warrant.

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4 minutes ago, efcfanwirral said:

I've just realised something - they've told the whole of greater Manchester to only meet outdoors at short notice. Screwing over businesses and employees again. Is furlough that flexible that you can do it with rota'd staff and turn it off and on, or does somebody lose out when indoor hospitality is a lot quieter in those areas? Genuine question I don't know how it works 

have they? Thought it was just minimal travel?

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7 minutes ago, DeanoL said:

And they've been proven right every fucking time.

Look, I'm not sure I agree with what Indie SAGE are suggesting now, but they've actually got it right every bloody time until now. Their track record is better than pretty much anyone else's. Far better than actual SAGE for that matter.

I know plenty of us on here have agreed with them in the past, and only had an issue with what they're saying now as it does seem over-cautious. But those who have consistently opposed them and disagreed that lockdowns should have happened earlier and been more stringent back in March, July, September and December 2020 really should have realised right now that they don't actually know better than Indie SAGE at all.

How have they been proved right? Care to show us the alternate timeline you’ve seen?

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6 minutes ago, efcfanwirral said:

I've just realised something - they've told the whole of greater Manchester to only meet outdoors at short notice. Screwing over businesses and employees again. Is furlough that flexible that you can do it with rota'd staff and turn it off and on, or does somebody lose out when indoor hospitality is a lot quieter in those areas? Genuine question I don't know how it works 

Furlough is very flexible and (with consideration to Union agreements) can be used with pretty much no notice. Of course that doesn’t help businesses that have to order perishable stock.

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1 minute ago, MEGABOWL said:

Furlough is very flexible and (with consideration to Union agreements) can be used with pretty much no notice. Of course that doesn’t help businesses that have to order perishable stock.

Good to know on the first bit but so true on the second. Those with outdoor areas should be fine with the upcoming weather forecasts but those with only indoor space could have some problems

Edited by efcfanwirral
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18 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

Well, they warned us about all sorts of stuff that has proved to be a problem eventually. It's not like they invented the indian variant to have a go at the government or anything. It isn't them who have caused the virus to keep spreading through schools. I mean, maybe you don't like what they're saying, maybe you feel they have been too critical of the government, but if you actually look at what they say on their presentations or in joint statements, a lot of it is not political or extreme.

But that misses the point that they’re free to scream as hard as they want for restrictions and will get airtime because they’re the go to for such arguments. Then, when the Government doesn’t follow them because they have much more to take into account, claim that they have been right because that’s impossible to prove or disprove. It’s the easiest job in the world but because it is always criticism that noise just becomes meaningless and counter productive.

They add nothing of value beyond scaring people, sometimes-e.g.the Brazilian and SA Variants-unnecessarily.

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5 minutes ago, zahidf said:

No they havent. They were calling for schools be closed between Jan and March!

Had that happened, we probably wouldn't be talking about delaying 21 June right now either.

Just now, MEGABOWL said:

How have they been proved right? Care to show us the alternate timeline you’ve seen?

Sure.

Prior to the formation of Indie SAGE, Christina Pagel called for a swift and early lockdown in March 2020. Instead the PM dithered about for a month before finally bringing in a lockdown. We locked down after most other European countries, and ended up in lockdown for longer with worse economic damage, and 10,000s of avoidable deaths.

In August 2020 like every other scientist Indie SAGE were imploring an early lockdown, but again Johnson dithered, causing an even worse second wave. Indie SAGE I believe actually recommended a two-week circuit breaker lockdown, but we ended up having do a four week one, and it was clear it wasn't enough.

Indie SAGE opposed re-opening after that lockdown but instead we moved into a tier system that was ineffective.

Indie SAGE again opposed the Christmas reopening plans in December, which were shown to be a complete disaster.

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3 minutes ago, DeanoL said:

Had that happened, we probably wouldn't be talking about delaying 21 June right now either.

Sure.

Prior to the formation of Indie SAGE, Christina Pagel called for a swift and early lockdown in March 2020. Instead the PM dithered about for a month before finally bringing in a lockdown. We locked down after most other European countries, and ended up in lockdown for longer with worse economic damage, and 10,000s of avoidable deaths.

In August 2020 like every other scientist Indie SAGE were imploring an early lockdown, but again Johnson dithered, causing an even worse second wave. Indie SAGE I believe actually recommended a two-week circuit breaker lockdown, but we ended up having do a four week one, and it was clear it wasn't enough.

Indie SAGE opposed re-opening after that lockdown but instead we moved into a tier system that was ineffective.

Indie SAGE again opposed the Christmas reopening plans in December, which were shown to be a complete disaster.

So if we hadn't opened the schools back then.... we wouldn't be delaying 21st June now? Fucking hell just when I think you're not completely stupid you go and say something like that..... 
 

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10 minutes ago, MEGABOWL said:

But that misses the point that they’re free to scream as hard as they want for restrictions and will get airtime because they’re the go to for such arguments. Then, when the Government doesn’t follow them because they have much more to take into account, claim that they have been right because that’s impossible to prove or disprove. It’s the easiest job in the world but because it is always criticism that noise just becomes meaningless and counter productive.

They add nothing of value beyond scaring people, sometimes-e.g.the Brazilian and SA Variants-unnecessarily.

yeah, and there are some out there who are screaming for no lockdowns, some are screaming that covid is fake, or that vaccines fuck you up. And yes, Indie Sage are coming at it from a epidimidingdong/virologist sort of point of view, but that is what they are..you can find economists or social health or mental health experts all saying different things too...and yes, the government has to weigh up all these things. But so far, the virus has outweighed everything...because if we just let the thing go then health care collapses and with that social/mental health and the economy.

Edited by steviewevie
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3 minutes ago, Havors said:

So if we hadn't opened the schools back then.... we wouldn't be delaying 21st June now? Fucking hell just when I think you're not completely stupid you go and say something like that..... 
 

Oh here comes @Havors again, with no argument, just tearing other people down, nothing of import to say, just wants to attack and mock people, oh mighty Havors, who works in statistics and doesn't understand basic maths, that has nothing interesting to say, so just slags people off - why not share your bounteous intelligence with us all, oh mighty Havors? 

Oh right, because you're a complete fantasist. Seriously, just fuck off.

Edited by DeanoL
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9 minutes ago, DeanoL said:

Had that happened, we probably wouldn't be talking about delaying 21 June right now either.

Sure.

Prior to the formation of Indie SAGE, Christina Pagel called for a swift and early lockdown in March 2020. Instead the PM dithered about for a month before finally bringing in a lockdown. We locked down after most other European countries, and ended up in lockdown for longer with worse economic damage, and 10,000s of avoidable deaths.

In August 2020 like every other scientist Indie SAGE were imploring an early lockdown, but again Johnson dithered, causing an even worse second wave. Indie SAGE I believe actually recommended a two-week circuit breaker lockdown, but we ended up having do a four week one, and it was clear it wasn't enough.

Indie SAGE opposed re-opening after that lockdown but instead we moved into a tier system that was ineffective.

Indie SAGE again opposed the Christmas reopening plans in December, which were shown to be a complete disaster.

So is the only viable option to just have been locked down between March 2020 for over an entire year? 

If all you have to worry about is the virus then yes it is easy to lower prevelance by just locking down. It has big impacts outwith that though.

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44 minutes ago, st dan said:

I think all Johnson, Whitty, Valance and Van Tam have to do is hold a conference to explain the reasons behind a month delay - the main factors being the more transmissible Delta variant, which is shown to need two vaccinations to be fully protected against.
Confirm that we will be keeping the current restrictions in place (which will appease the majority) and the additional time enables us to get those double jabs in.
I don’t think it will be seen as ‘back peddling’ if it is delivered strongly and directly, with evidence to back it up.  

Careful, that's far too sensible a reply for this thread. 

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1 minute ago, DeanoL said:

Oh here comes @Havors again, with no argument, just tearing other people down, nothing of import to say, just wants to attack and mock people, oh mighty Havors, who works in statistics and doesn't understand basic maths, that has nothing interesting to say, so just slags people off - why not share your bounteous intelligence with us all, oh mighty Havors? 

Oh right, because you're a complete fantasist. Seriously, just fuck off.

No Deano... you just keep saying stupid stupid things.  

I don't need an argument to point out you talking complete shit. 

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