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Chrisp1986

When will this shit end?

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2 minutes ago, Cream Soda said:

I was just wondering what the situations were with the labour party MPs as I'd heard nothing about them.  I'd heard nothing about Jenrick either.  

He drove over 100 miles to his parents home via his second home in order to drop of key supplies. Conservatives accept that this was in rules despite the distance and nothing more was made of it. That’s just one of the reasons why it find it very hard to accept their criticism of Kinnock

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2 minutes ago, Dave85radiohead said:

He drove over 100 miles to his parents home via his second home in order to drop of key supplies. Conservatives accept that this was in rules despite the distance and nothing more was made of it. That’s just one of the reasons why it find it very hard to accept their criticism of Kinnock

To me those situations are very similar and both breaching the rules.  No distance was ever put in place but everyone knows what "local" means and 100 miles isn't it, nor is Wales to London.  

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44 minutes ago, Cream Soda said:

Looks like it wasn't a local trip, Wales to London.  Clearly not essential travel.  Is an apology good enough and would we all have accepted that and moved on if Cummings had said sorry?

I can't find anything about who the other one is.

Kinnock Jnr is an MP and they are entitled to travel from their constituency to London (permanent place of work). The same as the Welsh tory MP who was In London when a party was held for his wife’s birthday in Wales.

Not saying going to his father’s home was right, but he did have a right to be in London.

Edited by Cherry Tree

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Just now, Cherry Tree said:

Kinnock Jnr is an MP and they are entitled to travel from their constituency to London (permanent place of work). The same as the Welsh tory MP who was not at home when a party was held for his wife’s birthday.

Not saying going to his father’s home was right, but he did have a right to be in London.

So was he already there for work purposes and just happened to visit his dad while he was there?  If so that is very different to making a special trip.

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1 minute ago, Cream Soda said:

To me those situations are very similar and both breaching the rules.  No distance was ever put in place but everyone knows what "local" means and 100 miles isn't it, nor is Wales to London.  

They are very similar and we’re both wrong. That was the point I was  ( perhaps badly) trying to make. When I said criticism sorry I meant in comparison to what Cummings did.  What he did was far more reckless and the governments attempt to sweep it away has been a national embarrassment. 
People on social media saying that Cummings should stay because Kinnock stayed are just plain wrong:
 

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1 hour ago, Cream Soda said:

Keep seeing comments on Twitter about two Labour MPs breaking the rules...heard nothing about it.  Who are they and why were they not sacked?

one was Stephen Kinnock, who apparently tweeted a pic of him in his dad's back garden in London.

But sacked for what? MPs don't get sacked. And people like Kinnock aren't responsible for setting a policy which they haven't followed themselves.

It's awkward tho for Labour, and might have something to do with Starmer's restraint.

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1 minute ago, Neil said:

people like Kinnock aren't responsible for setting a policy which they haven't followed themselves.

I don't think it matters who set the policy, we all knew what the policy was and as an MP he should have set an example for everyone else.  If he was already in London for work as the post above implies then that would be different for me and far more acceptable.

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7 minutes ago, Neil said:

one was Stephen Kinnock, who apparently tweeted a pic of him in his dad's back garden in London.

But sacked for what? MPs don't get sacked. And people like Kinnock aren't responsible for setting a policy which they haven't followed themselves.

It's awkward tho for Labour, and might have something to do with Starmer's restraint.

He broke lockdown rather than quarantine, and was countered with what jedrick did at the same time. Kinnock apologised as well and his was understandable, whereas cummings forced the govt to change their regulations so he wouldn't have to apologise...

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4 minutes ago, Cream Soda said:

I don't think it matters who set the policy, we all knew what the policy was and as an MP he should have set an example for everyone else.  If he was already in London for work as the post above implies then that would be different for me and far more acceptable.

Believing their stories at face value.

One drove over 100 miles to his dad to give him essential supplies and then wished him happy birthday from outside the house.

The other drove over 100 miles  with a small child and someone they believed had coronavirus and then after that drove a car with a small child in the back to check that he was in a fit state to drive and wouldn’t crash.

These stories aren’t even in the same orbit. Why are you trying to link them?

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8 minutes ago, Cream Soda said:

I don't think it matters who set the policy, we all knew what the policy was and as an MP he should have set an example for everyone else.  If he was already in London for work as the post above implies then that would be different for me and far more acceptable.

oh, I don't think anyone is disagreeing with "as an MP he should have set an example for everyone else". He's certainly been criticised for it.

But MPs don't get sacked, it's ministers, etc, who do.

And he's still in a different position to Cummings, who has set the policy and then taken the piss in about the biggest way possible (because he thought he was infected when doing his travelling).

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1 minute ago, Dave85radiohead said:

Believing their stories at face value.

One drove over 100 miles to his dad to give him essential supplies and then wished him happy birthday from outside the house.

The other drove over 100 miles  with a small child and someone they believed had coronavirus and then after that drove a car with a small child in the back to check that he was in a fit state to drive and wouldn’t crash.

These stories aren’t even in the same orbit. Why are you trying to link them?

I think I'm being misunderstood here.  I in no way approve of Cummings or what he did.  I'm not comparing the two scenarios and deciding which is worse.  I'm just saying both were clear breaches of the rules.  Yes, one was clearly worse than the other, but both were things that the majority of the population did not do because it was clear we were not supposed to.  If we were all driving 100 miles to visit family the lockdown would have been pointless.

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1 minute ago, Neil said:

But MPs don't get sacked, it's ministers, etc, who do.

What are the consequences for MPs if they do something wrong?

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24 minutes ago, Dave85radiohead said:

He drove over 100 miles to his parents home via his second home in order to drop of key supplies. Conservatives accept that this was in rules despite the distance and nothing more was made of it. That’s just one of the reasons why it find it very hard to accept their criticism of Kinnock

To be fair, Kinnock wasn't provided aid to anyone in need.  He was travelling to socialise.

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1 minute ago, Cream Soda said:

I think I'm being misunderstood here.  I in no way approve of Cummings or what he did.  I'm not comparing the two scenarios and deciding which is worse.  I'm just saying both were clear breaches of the rules.  Yes, one was clearly worse than the other, but both were things that the majority of the population did not do because it was clear we were not supposed to.  If we were all driving 100 miles to visit family the lockdown would have been pointless.

I completely agree with the point you're making - we have to be fair in the criticism and we can't ignore Labour MPs (well, just Kinnock. The other is a non-story to me) breaking the rules as well. Cummings was obviously worse, but that doesn't excuse Kinnock.

I think the key thing though is Kinnock didn't try and cover it up, and indeed apologised sincerely. People will accept mistakes if contrition is shown (especially as many have bent the rules to some degree). The Cummings scandal is totally different due to the lack of apology, the lying and cover up, and the retrospective amending of the rules to excuse him.

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3 minutes ago, Cream Soda said:

What are the consequences for MPs if they do something wrong?

We have the recall petition available to us which is through The Recall of MPs Act 2015 and is an Act of the Parliament of the United Kingdom that makes provision for constituents to be able to recall their Member of Parliament (MP) and call a by-election. This petition is successful if at least one in ten voters in the constituency sign.

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3 minutes ago, stuartbert two hats said:

To be fair, Kinnock wasn't provided aid to anyone in need.  He was travelling to socialise.

He does say he was dropping off some medicine.

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4 minutes ago, stuartbert two hats said:

To be fair, Kinnock wasn't provided aid to anyone in need.  He was travelling to socialise.

That was his story though as was Jenerick’s.

I don’t believe Cummings was driving to test his eyesight so I was taking all the stories as they were presented by the people involved:

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2 minutes ago, jparx said:

I completely agree with the point you're making - we have to be fair in the criticism and we can't ignore Labour MPs (well, just Kinnock. The other is a non-story to me) breaking the rules as well. Cummings was obviously worse, but that doesn't excuse Kinnock.

I think the key thing though is Kinnock didn't try and cover it up, and indeed apologised sincerely. People will accept mistakes if contrition is shown (especially as many have bent the rules to some degree). The Cummings scandal is totally different due to the lack of apology, the lying and cover up, and the retrospective amending of the rules to excuse him.

That's pretty much exactly what I was trying to say.  And I was just wondering if Cummings had apologised early on, would he have been forgiven by people on here.  But the c*** didn't apologise so I guess we'll never know.

2 minutes ago, Ozanne said:

We have the recall petition available to us which is through The Recall of MPs Act 2015 and is an Act of the Parliament of the United Kingdom that makes provision for constituents to be able to recall their Member of Parliament (MP) and call a by-election. This petition is successful if at least one in ten voters in the constituency sign.

I see, thanks.

2 minutes ago, mcshed said:

He does say he was dropping off some medicine.

That could have been dropped off for him, absolutely no excuse for a 100 mile drive.

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7 minutes ago, Neil said:

oh, I don't think anyone is disagreeing with "as an MP he should have set an example for everyone else". He's certainly been criticised for it.

But MPs don't get sacked, it's ministers, etc, who do.

And he's still in a different position to Cummings, who has set the policy and then taken the piss in about the biggest way possible (because he thought he was infected when doing his travelling).

Kinnock Jr is shadow minister for Asia so could be sacked from that position if anyone thought such a step was necessary.

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8 minutes ago, Cream Soda said:

What are the consequences for MPs if they do something wrong?

the most is being kicked out of the party - tho that's normally reserved for serious crime rather than the more-minor.

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2 minutes ago, Cream Soda said:

That could have been dropped off for him, absolutely no excuse for a 100 mile drive.

I know it's silly but just pointing out he's using the same excuse as Jenrick.

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2 minutes ago, mcshed said:

Kinnock Jr is shadow minister for Asia so could be sacked from that position if anyone thought such a step was necessary.

yep, that would be fair enough.

But it also needs to be recognised that Cummings position of setting policy and the messaging makes them different.

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3 minutes ago, Neil said:

yep, that would be fair enough.

But it also needs to be recognised that Cummings position of setting policy and the messaging makes them different.

Also doing it now rather than when it happened would look like trying to capitalise on Cummings rather than justice.

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