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When will this shit end?


Chrisp1986

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8 hours ago, Barry Fish said:

If your sole aim is the reduce infections then lockdowns clearly work.

But then you have to consider the harms of a collapsed economy, inactivity. Mental health,  largely closed health system creating a future backlog of issues.

I wouldn’t be surprised when we look back in years to come we come to the conclusion they did more harm than good.

You have to also factor in when we lose a mother of three to undiagnosed cancer vs an 85 year old nearing their end of life, there is an issue...  and the toll in this regards will be huge over the coming years.

I have never been able to understand that part of the argument that lockdowns cause health conditions other than Covid to not be treated. If we open up then the increase in Covid cases causes even more hospitalisations and the health service to be even more overstretched? Are the ones advocating this approach suggesting a triage where only non Covid cases are treated?

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25 minutes ago, SheffJeff said:

Sorry to hear about your daughter pal, have witnessed how tough it can be for parents as my sister had it for about 15 years so I hope the stresses of the last year on top of the added pressure of exams and such don't cause a relapse. Really feel for kids at the moment... so much relentless pressure.

she's done ok during lockdown..mostly.

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11 minutes ago, onthebeach said:

I have never been able to understand that part of the argument that lockdowns cause health conditions other than Covid to not be treated. If we open up then the increase in Covid cases causes even more hospitalisations and the health service to be even more overstretched? Are the ones advocating this approach suggesting a triage where only non Covid cases are treated?

Both have some truth. Its not a binary thing like some would like to think it.

People have gone without treatment and have since died and more will in years to come.

 

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2 minutes ago, Barry Fish said:

Both have some truth. Its not a binary thing like some would like to think it.

People have gone without treatment and have since died and more will in years to come.

 

Please enlighten me - I’ve tried to find the reasoning why, with finite resources, using more of the health service capacity with more patients via more infections would free up capacity for non Covid patients. I do understand that some non Covid patients are reluctant to seek treatment when infections are high for fear of catching Covid in a hospital environment but wouldn’t they be even less willing in a non lockdown situation as infections would be higher? 

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4 minutes ago, onthebeach said:

Please enlighten me - I’ve tried to find the reasoning why, with finite resources, using more of the health service capacity with more patients via more infections would free up capacity for non Covid patients. I do understand that some non Covid patients are reluctant to seek treatment when infections are high for fear of catching Covid in a hospital environment but wouldn’t they be even less willing in a non lockdown situation as infections would be higher? 

I think some people may fear being an unnecessary burden when the NHS is under pressure. 

Edited by Barney McGrew
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9 minutes ago, onthebeach said:

Please enlighten me - I’ve tried to find the reasoning why, with finite resources, using more of the health service capacity with more patients via more infections would free up capacity for non Covid patients. I do understand that some non Covid patients are reluctant to seek treatment when infections are high for fear of catching Covid in a hospital environment but wouldn’t they be even less willing in a non lockdown situation as infections would be higher? 

We actively choose to use our finite resources to save the lives of 80+ year olds over the lives of 30 year olds.  Its the end out come of the last 12 months.

This leads to a crass conversation but it's a conversation we should of had and will be having for years.

I don't think we got the balance entirely right to be frank.  

It's not just a case of people not coming forward.  Lots of people's treatment was canceled.  Some of those people have now died and will go on to die.

It's not a binary thing.  It's dumb to think it is.  It's all about balance and no way did we get that perfect 

I am not saying we should of left all the old people to die.  That would be sick..  its about balance...  I am saying when we all but stopped all over treatment we got the balance wrong.  Lots of people went without their cancer treatment for example.

Edited by Barry Fish
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Just seen on Twitter that the Mail are reporting in their paper tomorrow that the J&J vaccine is set to be approved in the next 10 days and the vaccination programme is expected to speed up, with under 50s soon to be offered it. Talk of the vaccine passports being popular with the public and will allow mass gatherings to happen (Glastonbury pictured) as a short term measure before we reach herd immunity in the autumn. Usual Mail caveats obviously, but interesting none the less.

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6 minutes ago, Barney McGrew said:

I think some people may fear being an unnecessary burden when the NHS is under pressure. 

This happened.  During the first lockdown more than the following ones as the messaging changed and the nhs opened up more.

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3 minutes ago, Barney McGrew said:

I think some people may fear being an unnecessary burden when the NHS is under pressure. 

Yes, thank you - I can see that being a reason but I don’t understand why ‘opening up’ would get more non Covid patients to seek treatment. Now hospitals have more capacity I wonder if that’s why there has recently been some public messaging tv ads regarding strokes/possible lung cancer coughs encouraging patients to come forward?

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3 minutes ago, onthebeach said:

Yes, thank you - I can see that being a reason but I don’t understand why ‘opening up’ would get more non Covid patients to seek treatment. Now hospitals have more capacity I wonder if that’s why there has recently been some public messaging tv ads regarding strokes/possible lung cancer coughs encouraging patients to come forward?

The NHS did a poor job at managing its resources in the first lockdown to be blunt.  

I think the NHS leadership and PHE will be savaged in the public enquiry.

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7 minutes ago, zahidf said:

desperate to keep us locked up longer. hopefully the govt will decide that getting rid of lockdown is more importanr

I think they want to come out of this smelling like roses and doing that is stopping more waves over economic damage in their minds.

Its why the chancellor is very much in the background right now.

I think they are wrong.  Elections are always fought on the economy.  But I also think Boris wont be fighting the next election and is more concerned about the public enquiry / legacy.  Just a guess.

Edited by Barry Fish
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10 minutes ago, Barry Fish said:

We actively choose to use our finite resources to save the lives of 80+ year olds over the lives of 30 year olds.  Its the end out come of the last 12 months.

This leads to a crass conversation but it's a conversation we should of had and will be having for years.

I don't think we got the balance entirely right to be frank.  

It's not just a case of people not coming forward.  Lots of people's treatment was canceled.

So it would be down to triage then? I think the decision would have to taken by some cold hearted manager as I am sure this would really screw up the doctors/nurses and health care professionals. Like you say though this is part of a much bigger conversation as a society we will need to have at some point. Quality of life with end stage Alzenheimers etc etc?

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19 minutes ago, onthebeach said:

So it would be down to triage then? I think the decision would have to taken by some cold hearted manager as I am sure this would really screw up the doctors/nurses and health care professionals. Like you say though this is part of a much bigger conversation as a society we will need to have at some point. Quality of life with end stage Alzenheimers etc etc?

PHE and the NHS lacked the organisational ability to quickly formalise an effective strategy to divide up its resources between treating covid patients and non covid patients.  The pandemic planning and readiness was terrible.  There should of been a ready made plan to pick off the shelf but there wasn't.  The only one we had was for flu and its accepted it was light weight and wrong.  Early lockdown was key.   The whole NHS largely shut down to anything other than accidents and emergencies coming in via ambulance or the ones who dared to report to A&E and covid patients.  Its was madness.  I know an eye doctor who did next to NOTHING between  March and June not because he didn't have the resources or was being redeployed  but because he was simply told his ward was closing.   Larges amounts of the NHS was just shut down out of fear and lack of organisation with the system.  The system had capacity it was just blunty used.  

The public enquiry is going to savage PHE and the NHS leadership I think.  The likes of Vallance will be found wanting I think as well.  It was a shit a show during the first wave and the early days of this.

Now patients can get there treatments again, even during the last lockdown, which only proves the failures of the first lockdown.

PHE is such a shit show it was totally by passed for the vaccine strategy as Cummings said.  

Edited by Barry Fish
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5 hours ago, onthebeach said:

I have never been able to understand that part of the argument that lockdowns cause health conditions other than Covid to not be treated

Lockdowns don't.but covid does 40% of new covid cases acquired in January were acquired in hospitals, close contact in unventilated spaces.therreseems to be lower problems in hospitals now.

 

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. If we open up then the increase in Covid cases causes even more hospitalisations and the health service to be even more overstretched? Are the ones advocating this approach suggesting a triage where only non Covid cases are treated?

 

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4 hours ago, Barry Fish said:

PHE and the NHS lacked the organisational ability to quickly formalise an effective strategy to divide up its resources between treating covid patients and non covid patients.  The pandemic planning and readiness was terrible.  There should of been a ready made plan to pick off the shelf but there wasn't. 

That would need spare separate hospitals and the staff for them. It's not a practical approach when pandemics areNot really expected.

4 hours ago, Barry Fish said:

The only one we had was for flu and its accepted it was light weight and wrong.  Early lockdown was key.   The whole NHS largely shut down to anything other than accidents and emergencies coming in via ambulance or the ones who dared to report to A&E and covid patients.  Its was madness.  I know an eye doctor who did next to NOTHING between  March and June not because he didn't have the resources or was being redeployed  but because he was simply told his ward was closing.   Larges amounts of the NHS was just shut down out of fear and lack of organisation with the system.  The system had capacity it was just blunty used.  

The public enquiry is going to savage PHE and the NHS leadership I think.  The likes of Vallance will be found wanting I think as well.  It was a shit a show during the first wave and the early days of this.

Now patients can get there treatments again, even during the last lockdown, which only proves the failures of the first lockdown.

PHE is such a shit show it was totally by passed for the vaccine strategy as Cummings said.  

 

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3 hours ago, eFestivals said:

That would need spare separate hospitals and the staff for them. It's not a practical approach when pandemics areNot really expected.

 

That is entirely untrue.  Proven by the fact the NHS still kept other services going during the second wave but not the first.

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36 minutes ago, Barry Fish said:

That is entirely untrue.  Proven by the fact the NHS still kept other services going during the second wave but not the first.

Those other services operate alongside ide normal services in normal and times. Having a pandemonium ic coping NHS would need facilities and stff just for a pandemic a bit like the nightingale hospitals but with stff. A second NHS that did nothing in normal times not a practicalidea

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