When will this shit end?

[Ozanne]

Interesting. This is what Starmers position could mean to the Brexit talks. 

[steviewevie]

13 minutes ago, Ozanne said:

Interesting. This is what Starmers position could mean to the Brexit talks. 

not sure how I feel about this...keep hearing conflicting arguments to what labour should do....but in the end no matter what this govt owns this.

[efcfanwirral]

Just now, steviewevie said:

not sure how I feel about this...keep hearing conflicting arguments to what labour should do....but in the end no matter what this govt owns this.

If the deal is a softer Brexit (as soft as possible) I'd be happy with it - it's national interest above party politics at this point

[Fuzzy Afro]

A year on from the GE and it looks like the red wall want to go back to Labour 

[crocodiles]

What sort of opinions are you getting from those around you on uptake of vaccines.  I'm pleased to say that most of my family seem more than happy to have a vaccine when their time arrives. 

I have been slightly surprised by the reluctance of some of my friends and colleagues.  They are not so much anti vaccine but just say they don't intend to have it 

Whilst I appreciate lots of people may not take it up I have perhaps naively been surprised by some around me .

[Ozanne]

29 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

not sure how I feel about this...keep hearing conflicting arguments to what labour should do....but in the end no matter what this govt owns this.

My take is that they want to try to get past Brexit and the thought is that if they don’t vote for a trade deal then it makes no deal more likely; it gives the Tories near sole control over the vote. So if a large enough pocket of Tories wanted to vote down their own deal to get a no deal then Labour voting against a deal would help, it’s the same for abstaining. Labour could then be painted as being blamed for no deal by the Tories and would be associated with any harm that comes with it.

Another aspect is that there isn’t really any major downside to a deal when the alternative is no deal. Brexit has already happened and on the whole will make us poorer, therefore any trade deal that gets agreed won’t make us worse off than base line Brexit (no deal), the main negatives of a deal will be what it doesn’t cover which will be included in a no deal. This is a trade deal mainly so even it’s a flimsy one Labour could vote for it then push the government to go for better terms in the proceeding years. It would be important how Labour sold their actions to the public, prevent no deal, push for better terms etc. If things started to go wrong Labour would need to say there aren’t queues at the border because of this deal there are queues because you left the Customs Union. 
 

It’s mainly about protecting against a no deal and also making it look like Labour have learnt their lesson from last year. It’s a very tough dilemma for Labour but I think voting for a deal is the safest option available to them.

[Crazyfool01]

14 minutes ago, crocodiles said:

What sort of opinions are you getting from those around you on uptake of vaccines.  I'm pleased to say that most of my family seem more than happy to have a vaccine when their time arrives. 

I have been slightly surprised by the reluctance of some of my friends and colleagues.  They are not so much anti vaccine but just say they don't intend to have it 

Whilst I appreciate lots of people may not take it up I have perhaps naively been surprised by some around me .

most of my friends and family are more than happy to take it ... nursing sister was wavering but is now having it .... parents said they would be first in line .... 1 friend who is anti vax , anti mask and anti lockdown won't be along with a couple of contacts I also know ... I think most will quietly take it once they see other people taking it not growing 2 heads etc ... the ones that won't will be the ones making the most noise 

[crocodiles]

9 minutes ago, crazyfool1 said:

most of my friends and family are more than happy to take it ... nursing sister was wavering but is now having it .... parents said they would be first in line .... 1 friend who is anti vax , anti mask and anti lockdown won't be along with a couple of contacts I also know ... I think most will quietly take it once they see other people taking it not growing 2 heads etc ... the ones that won't will be the ones making the most noise 

Yes I think a few of the doubters I've come across are probably likely to have it once they realise those around them who've had it are ok . I haven't come across any vehemently opposed yet...

[shoptildrop]

2 hours ago, stuartbert two hats said:

I'd noticed the rapid drop in Manchester had started to slow in the last few days.  

I like the way they are now comparing to London rather than England average 😂

They are still falling well though

 

[stuartbert two hats]

3 minutes ago, shoptildrop said:

I like the way they are now comparing to London rather than England average 😂

They are still falling well though

 

Yeah, it's not *that* slow yet. Stockport dropped 12 yesterday, although only 8 the day before. Certainly not likely to drop by over 20 again.

[shoptildrop]

This Festival seems hopefully (I know not UK but this Covid shit is everywhere) - Faith No More just announced they are playing so positive??

[efcfanwirral]

1 hour ago, crocodiles said:

What sort of opinions are you getting from those around you on uptake of vaccines.  I'm pleased to say that most of my family seem more than happy to have a vaccine when their time arrives. 

I have been slightly surprised by the reluctance of some of my friends and colleagues.  They are not so much anti vaccine but just say they don't intend to have it 

Whilst I appreciate lots of people may not take it up I have perhaps naively been surprised by some around me .

 

46 minutes ago, crazyfool1 said:

most of my friends and family are more than happy to take it ... nursing sister was wavering but is now having it .... parents said they would be first in line .... 1 friend who is anti vax , anti mask and anti lockdown won't be along with a couple of contacts I also know ... I think most will quietly take it once they see other people taking it not growing 2 heads etc ... the ones that won't will be the ones making the most noise 

I think in some cases it's about needing to be given a good reason to take it. I'm in that camp - not anti vaccination, just not entirely sure of the point of taking it once the people who make up 99% of the deaths are protected to be honest. Just feels like an extra chemical my body doesn't need. If I catch it and have a really bad reaction, that's just what happens but would be extremely rare at my age (early 30s)

I'm sure people will come back with reasons but many of those would also apply to getting the flu vaccine which I've never been offered - people who are vulnerable have always been vulnerable to these infections. Happy to wear a mask and keep a distance but I'm just not sure what the need is for everyone to take it beyond stopping the fear that's been whipped up?

Edited December 3, 2020 by efcfanwirral

[Crazyfool01]

2 minutes ago, efcfanwirral said:

 

I think in some cases it's about needing to be given a good reason to take it. I'm in that camp - not anti vaccination, just not entirely sure of the point of taking it once the people who make up 99% of the deaths are protected to be honest. Just feels like an extra chemical my body doesn't need. If I catch it and have a really bad reaction, that's just what happens but would be extremely rare at my age (early 30s)

I'm sure people will come back with reasons but many of those would also apply to getting the flu vaccine which I've never been offered - people who are vulnerable have always been vulnerable to these infections. Happy to wear a mask and keep a distance but I'm just not sure what the need is for everyone to take it beyond stopping the fear that's been whipped up?

its part of a vaccine herd immunity I think .... preventing those that are still vulnerable and unable to take the vaccine from becoming ill .... happy to be corrected on this but that is my understanding ? we also might find that the vaccination stops/ slows transmission although we are still waiting to find that out ? 

[steviewevie]

52 minutes ago, Ozanne said:

My take is that they want to try to get past Brexit and the thought is that if they don’t vote for a trade deal then it makes no deal more likely; it gives the Tories near sole control over the vote. So if a large enough pocket of Tories wanted to vote down their own deal to get a no deal then Labour voting against a deal would help, it’s the same for abstaining. Labour could then be painted as being blamed for no deal by the Tories and would be associated with any harm that comes with it.

Another aspect is that there isn’t really any major downside to a deal when the alternative is no deal. Brexit has already happened and on the whole will make us poorer, therefore any trade deal that gets agreed won’t make us worse off than base line Brexit (no deal), the main negatives of a deal will be what it doesn’t cover which will be included in a no deal. This is a trade deal mainly so even it’s a flimsy one Labour could vote for it then push the government to go for better terms in the proceeding years. It would be important how Labour sold their actions to the public, prevent no deal, push for better terms etc. If things started to go wrong Labour would need to say there aren’t queues at the border because of this deal there are queues because you left the Customs Union. 
 

It’s mainly about protecting against a no deal and also making it look like Labour have learnt their lesson from last year. It’s a very tough dilemma for Labour but I think voting for a deal is the safest option available to them.

yeah, I get all that...and that's kind of where I am...but I also understand the point that abstaining, or not voting for it means the tories own it fully...and Starmer sticks to the same principles he had when he was shadow brexit sec. A deal is not that much better than a no deal really, a lot harder than anything being proposed when May was PM. Anyway, not an easy decision for Starmer...

[topmarksbri]

32 minutes ago, shoptildrop said:

This Festival seems hopefully (I know not UK but this Covid shit is everywhere) - Faith No More just announced they are playing so positive??

By their standards this is quite a weak line up imo

[efcfanwirral]

3 minutes ago, crazyfool1 said:

its part of a vaccine herd immunity I think .... preventing those that are still vulnerable and unable to take the vaccine from becoming ill .... happy to be corrected on this but that is my understanding ? we also might find that the vaccination stops/ slows transmission although we are still waiting to find that out ? 

I get that point but...why not make everyone take the flu vaccine every year for that same reason? It's full on double standards

I'm more likely to take it WITHOUT a vaccine passport than with one, because of that reason

and if I do decide to take it with a vaccine passport because I get bored, I will be boycotting hospitality businesses that demand it, and only giving money to those that don't demand it - I feel that strongly about where the country could end up with such a system available to future governments. And yes I include festivals in that

Edited December 3, 2020 by efcfanwirral

[gherring8]

My parents and grandparents seem keen to be vaccinated which is great. 
I have several friends who have said they won’t be taking it but they are either pregnant or planning on having a baby in the next few years (age range late 20s to mid 30s)
So whilst there is no data to support how safe it would be in that sense, they will be opting out for the time being. 
Whilst I don’t feel the same, I do respect their decision and it feels like a pretty reasonable reason. 

[Crazyfool01]

6 minutes ago, efcfanwirral said:

I get that point but...why not make everyone take the flu vaccine every year for that same reason? It's full on double standards

I'm more likely to take it WITHOUT a vaccine passport than with one, because of that reason

and if I do decide to take it with a vaccine passport because I get bored, I will be boycotting hospitality businesses that demand it, and only giving money to those that don't demand it - I feel that strongly about where the country could end up with such a system available to future governments 

The flu vaccine has been rolled out to larger numbers this year and although its early in the season the numbers seem die they will be much lower due in part to more being vaccinated .... I also hope that it doesnt come to immunity passports ... but I guess thats down to people making a decision to have the vaccination so this doesnt become necessary .... Mind you Ive already had one person saying he won't be going to Glastonbury ever again because of this .... for me we dont have it with flu so I dont think we will get it with covid .... maybe year 1 .... but not much past that ... and the numbers of people dying from Covid are much higher ... hence the shutdowns etc 

Edited December 3, 2020 by crazyfool1

[efcfanwirral]

1 minute ago, crazyfool1 said:

The flu vaccine has been rolled out to larger numbers this year and although its early in the season the numbers seem die they will be much lower due in part to more being vaccinated .... I also hope that it doesnt come to immunity passports ... but I guess thats down to people making a decision to have the vaccination so this doesnt become necessary .... Mind you Ive already had one person saying he won't be going to Glastonbury ever again because of this .... for me we dont have it with flu so I dont think we will get it with covid .... maybe year 1 .... but not much past that 

I'm guessing the flu vaccine being larger numbers works now with the social distancing and masks, but I'm not sure it'd hold up when crowds start happening again - hope I'm wrong but I don't think the majority of people offered flu (older rather than younger and vulnerable) will be seeing enough people outside their age group. Will be helping in those circles for now though - hope it holds up over Christmas. 

Big question is - what happens if it shows that the vaccine doesn't stop people transmitting but just stops severe disease (which I'm sure they talked about)? Definitely throws immunity passports out the window, or at least should do, but does it mean long term measures?

[pryce]

3 hours ago, Copperface said:

I'm not that mathematically able but based on your figure there of 1.25 million per week,  and the first phase group numbering approx 25 million needing two doses, it's going to take 40 weeks to get through just the primary phase.

That's just the GP network he is stating with the 1.25million, not including everything above it 

[steviewevie]

11 minutes ago, efcfanwirral said:

I get that point but...why not make everyone take the flu vaccine every year for that same reason? It's full on double standards

I'm more likely to take it WITHOUT a vaccine passport than with one, because of that reason

and if I do decide to take it with a vaccine passport because I get bored, I will be boycotting hospitality businesses that demand it, and only giving money to those that don't demand it - I feel that strongly about where the country could end up with such a system available to future governments. And yes I include festivals in that

doesn't the flu virus mutate, and they just have a new vaccine every year for the dominant strain going around? Not sure if I have that right. Whereas this coronavirus doesn't mutate (hopefully), so in theory could be wiped out if enough people get vaccinate and herd immunity achieved (tall order as has to be done globally).

I may have all that wrong.

[steviewevie]

kin'ell...brexit talks gone pear shaped again.

[Crazyfool01]

1 minute ago, efcfanwirral said:

I'm guessing the flu vaccine being larger numbers works now with the social distancing and masks, but I'm not sure it'd hold up when crowds start happening again - hope I'm wrong but I don't think the majority of people offered flu (older rather than younger and vulnerable) will be seeing enough people outside their age group. Will be helping in those circles for now though - hope it holds up over Christmas. 

Big question is - what happens if it shows that the vaccine doesn't stop people transmitting but just stops severe disease (which I'm sure they talked about)? Definitely throws immunity passports out the window, or at least should do, but does it mean long term measures?

yep thats why I put in part ... dont forget though that we do have several more vaccines in the pipeline and some might work with transmission some may not 180 odd rings a bell  ... its fingers crossed time till we get some more data 

[Copperface]

10 minutes ago, pryce said:

That's just the GP network he is stating with the 1.25million, not including everything above it 

Ah yes, My mistake. Combining the two looks to be about 3 million per week, coming out at about 16/17 weeks. Not sure why NHS is publicising one million per week unless they are looking to underpromise and overachieve.

Edited December 3, 2020 by Copperface

[Ozanne]

25 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

kin'ell...brexit talks gone pear shaped again.

Could you post links or tweets when you see this stuff please mate? Not having a pop I’m just interested!