When will this shit end?

[mattiloy]

8 minutes ago, mcshed said:

The thing is whilst it may be true that some people where weaponising anti-semitism against Corbyn, the leadership making that the issue undermined the response to the genuine problem underneath. That's why the EHRC specifically takes issue with responses minimising the seriousness of the problem.

In his position as ex-leader his response to that report cannot be that people have exaggerated the problem. If something goes wrong and you're in charge you deal with it you don't downplay it that's responsibility.

But it is has been a minor issue. 0.03% of labour members. As Corbyn said himself - 0.03% too many but nevertheless, a small fraction of the labour movement. A movement that was branded institutionally racist and Corbyn branded a racist himself. Why shouldn't he defend himself from that? The EHRC themselves found that labour was not 'institutionally racist'. The report was not the bombshell that the media has made it out to be.

Further, opinions on that should be allowed to be expressed by whomsoever in the party without fear of reproach - that is a recommendation by the EHRC report.



I suspect that the suspension of Jeremy Corbyn was not legal and will be turned over either in or out of court. Kier Starmer is an hysterical extremist and has alienated half the party. These are the facts.

[Zoo Music Girl]

9 minutes ago, mattiloy said:

But it is has been a minor issue. 0.03% of labour members. As Corbyn said himself - 0.03% too many but nevertheless, a small fraction of the labour movement. A movement that was branded institutionally racist and Corbyn branded a racist himself. Why shouldn't he defend himself from that? The EHRC themselves found that labour was not 'institutionally racist'. The report was not the bombshell that the media has made it out to be.

Further, opinions on that should be allowed to be expressed by whomsoever in the party without fear of reproach - that is a recommendation by the EHRC report.



I suspect that the suspension of Jeremy Corbyn was not legal and will be turned over either in or out of court. Kier Starmer is an hysterical extremist and has alienated half the party. These are the facts.

I could be wrong but I don't think it was actually Starmer's decision? He was just consulted on it.

[Zoo Music Girl]

Should add that I think it was the right one regardless.

[Frankly Mr Shankly]

8 minutes ago, mattiloy said:

Kier Starmer is an hysterical extremist and has alienated half the party. These are the facts.

Erm, slightly ironic from a Corbyn fan, no?

[mcshed]

1 minute ago, mattiloy said:

But it is has been a minor issue. 0.03% of labour members. As Corbyn said himself - 0.03% too many but nevertheless, a small fraction of the labour movement. A movement that was branded institutionally racist and Corbyn branded a racist himself. Why shouldn't he defend himself from that? The EHRC themselves found that labour was not 'institutionally racist'. The report was not the bombshell that the media has made it out to be.

Further, opinions on that should be allowed to be expressed by whomsoever in the party without fear of reproach - that is a recommendation by the EHRC report.



I suspect that the suspension of Jeremy Corbyn was not legal and will be turned over either in or out of court. Kier Starmer is an hysterical extremist and has alienated half the party. These are the facts.

Put yourself in the shoes of a Jewish Labour member victim to racist abuse from that 0.03%, your complaint is being "dealt with" but because of a lack of resources this is taking a while and you don't get any updates, if you want to attend branch meetings your abuser will be there, if you want to do any campaigning your abuser might well be there and throughout all of this whenever the topic is brought up by the leadership it is always with some qualification: BUT it is being exaggerated, BUT other forms of racism are also bad, BUT Israel is still a c**t. How would you feel?

[zahidf]

First US vaccine doses could be available to some Americans in late December – Dr Fauci

The first doses of a safe and effective coronavirus vaccine will likely become available to some high-risk Americans in late December or early January, Dr. Anthony Fauci, the top US infectious diseases expert, said on Thursday.

Fauci, director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, said he based this on current projections from vaccine front-runners Moderna Inc and Pfizer.

[mattiloy]

2 minutes ago, mcshed said:

Put yourself in the shoes of a Jewish Labour member victim to racist abuse from that 0.03%, your complaint is being "dealt with" but because of a lack of resources this is taking a while and you don't get any updates, if you want to attend branch meetings your abuser will be there, if you want to do any campaigning your abuser might well be there and throughout all of this whenever the topic is brought up by the leadership it is always with some qualification: BUT it is being exaggerated, BUT other forms of racism are also bad, BUT Israel is still a c**t. How would you feel?

This was also the case under Miliband, Brown, Blair then. This is the complaints procedure he inherited and improved upon. Antisemitism complaints were up 80% under Corbyn, meanwhile membership doubled. That means there were proportionally more antisemitism complaints pre-Corbyn.

Corbyn has not denied the problem, his issue is with the scale. The complaints procedures improved under Corbyn, after his pick of general secretary was installed - as noted by the EHRC report. It is reasonable for Corbyn to comment on this. It is not reasonable for him to be suspended for that and it will come undone. Starmer already passing it off as the general secretary's decision when Corbyn supporting members of the NEC have said that they have evidence that this was sanctioned by Starmer beforehand.

Starmer was the one who pursuaded Corbyn to pursue the fatal '2nd vote' strategy on Brexit. So either he knew what he was doing and deliberately handed the election to the tories, or he is not so shrewd a political operator as he is touted to be. After this move I think its the latter. It is a major error. Remember my comments in 2024. Thats all I'm saying on the matter.

[tigger123]

1 minute ago, mattiloy said:

This was also the case under Miliband, Brown, Blair then. This is the complaints procedure he inherited and improved upon. Antisemitism complaints were up 80% under Corbyn, meanwhile membership doubled. That means there were proportionally more antisemitism complaints pre-Corbyn.

Corbyn has not denied the problem, his issue is with the scale. The complaints procedures improved under Corbyn, after his pick of general secretary was installed - as noted by the EHRC report. It is reasonable for Corbyn to comment on this. It is not reasonable for him to be suspended for that and it will come undone. Starmer already passing it off as the general secretary's decision when Corbyn supporting members of the NEC have said that they have evidence that this was sanctioned by Starmer beforehand.

Starmer was the one who pursuaded Corbyn to pursue the fatal '2nd vote' strategy on Brexit. So either he knew what he was doing and deliberately handed the election to the tories, or he is not so shrewd a political operator as he is touted to be. After this move I think its the latter. It is a major error. Remember my comments in 2024. Thats all I'm saying on the matter.

One of Corbyn's greatest supporters, Len McCluskey (general secretary of Unite union), said only 2 weeks ago on Newsnight about Peter Mandelson "I stopped listening to what Peter Mandelson said many many years ago. I would suggest that Peter just goes into a room and counts his gold, not worry about what’s happening in the Labour Party". This was 2 weeks ago, knowing full well the EHRC report was just about to be released. 

 

It doesn't matter if it's only 0.03%, one report is too many and if Corbyn's closest allies are still saying things like the above, even after many have expressed an issue with antisemitism in the party, then there is clearly a real issue that needed to be dealt with. Corbyn had to go.

[SwedgeAntilles]

I'm not a Labour supporter but I had a lot of time for Jeremy Corbyn. I think he was, and is, a good man. He's politically naïve and I disagreed fundamentally with his position (or lack of it some might say) on Brexit but I don't think for a second that the man is an anti-Semite. 

Moreso I think he's guilty of, as many of us on the Left are if we are to turn the lens inward for a moment, turning a blind eye to (or in some cases even accepting) some dog-whistle anti-Semitic tropes (see David Schneider's excellent Are You Anti Semitic tweet below). However, I believe him when he says that this issue was seized upon by his opponents inside and outside the party and used politically to discredit him, with their crowning glory being yesterday's suspension. 

I don't mind admitting that I was moved listening to him on that Saturday afternoon on the Pyramid in 2016, and that came to mind yesterday afternoon after he was thrown to the dogs by the centrist's new flavour of the month. Even more galling that Starmer is now apparently trying to wash his hands of the responsibility. If he's going to be the next PM it would be nice if he used the next couple of years to grow a backbone.

 

Edited October 30, 2020 by SwedgeAntilles
for clarification

[SwedgeAntilles]

Edit fail

Edited October 30, 2020 by SwedgeAntilles

[Ryan1984]

It seems to me that Starmer is trying to move the party away from any past associations with antisemitism? (I am a fan of Starmer and Corbyn - think the latter’s statement yesterday sealed his fate).

The issue Labour now have is the Tories/Cummings (who are clearly racist in so many other ways) have Starmer being in the previous shadow cabinet - can already predict PMQs next week - as a stick to beat him with. The good news for the Tories is it’s taken attention away from their desire to starve poor kids...

Edited October 30, 2020 by Ryan1984

[mcshed]

5 minutes ago, mattiloy said:

This was also the case under Miliband, Brown, Blair then. This is the complaints procedure he inherited and improved upon. Antisemitism complaints were up 80% under Corbyn, meanwhile membership doubled. That means there were proportionally more antisemitism complaints pre-Corbyn.

Except the thing that I was taking issue with and the EHRC was taking issue with and that got Corbyn suspended yesterday was minimising the problem which wasn't going on under the predecessors.

I don't think Corbyn is an anti-semite and I don't think the Labour party is institutionally racist, I think it there is a problem with a few on the left* and Corbyn's leadership handed it spectacularly badly.

*I think there is a wider problem on the left of not seeing antisemitism as proper racism, there is a tendency for those on the left to view everything through the prism of class, and in that worldview anti-racism is about protecting those less well off from the establishment, antisemitism doesn't quite fit as neatly to that haves vs have-nots dynamic and so isn't taken as seriously.

[Ozanne]

4 minutes ago, Ryan1984 said:

It seems to me that Starmer is trying to move the party away from any past associations with antisemitism? (I am a fan of Starmer and Corbyn - think the latter’s statement yesterday sealed his fate).

The issue Labour now have is the Tories/Cummings (who are clearly racist in so many other ways) now have Starmer being in the shadow cabinet as a stick to beat him with. The good news for the Tories is it’s taken attention away from their desire to starve poor kids...

According to snap polling yesterday the public support the suspension of Corbyn. This could end up leading to the general public who couldn’t vote for Corbyn seeing Starmer as decisive and in turn bringing some voters back to Labour. 

[Henrik]

So glad to see the back of Corybn.

The Labour party now officially more racist than the BNP. What a time to be alive. 

[steviewevie]

Starmer could well face same problems Kinnock did...looked decisive first of all when moved on militant, but then continued to lead a divided party that kept them out of power. Johnson and co must be loving this.

[Ozanne]

2 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

Starmer could well face same problems Kinnock did...looked decisive first of all when moved on militant, but then continued to lead a divided party that kept them out of power. Johnson and co must be loving this.

Indeed. Labour need to realise it’s the Tories they should be fighting not each other. 

[eFestivals]

32 minutes ago, SwedgeAntilles said:

I think he was, and is, a good man.

that may be true.

It's also true that he was completely unsuitable to be leader of a major political party. Some people can do leadership well, Corbyn couldn't do it at all.

And that's before getting to his baggage.

[squirrelarmy]

The problem with Corbyn is that his plan for Britain was too extreme for the average Brit to comprehend. 
 

While some of his ideas in theory are exactly what this country needs, you’re never going to be able to complete any of those plans if you don’t get elected. In our mainly right wing biased country and media, anyone far left of centre won’t get a look in. 
 

People complain that Starmer is going to be too centrist or “Tory lite”.
Isn’t that what we need to get the country moving gradually over to a better way of thinking?
 

I don’t have any party loyalties. I can’t stand the Tories and what they do so I try to vote for what’s best for the country. I knew Corbyn was unelectable but I still voted Labour last time as it was the best chance of reducing the Tory majority. 

It’s just a shame we didn’t have this clean slate pre Brexit and then we wouldn’t be in this mess. 

[steviewevie]

3 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

that may be true.

It's also true that he was completely unsuitable to be leader of a major political party. Some people can do leadership well, Corbyn couldn't do it at all.

And that's before getting to his baggage.

yeah, he wasn't up to it in the end...some times I thought he might just quit and give McDonnell a go...wish he had actually as I liked McDonnell more than Corbyn.

[Simsy]

9 hours ago, priest17 said:

I take it all back get Corbyn back ere now

 

Lol at the Mail accusing people of hatred.

[steviewevie]

Low democrat turnout in Florida's biggest county...squeaky bum time...

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/10/29/miami-voter-turnout-democrats-433643

[squirrelarmy]

3 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

Low democrat turnout in Florida's biggest county...squeaky bum time...

No one will openly admit to being a democrat in Florida. They will get shot by their sister/cousin/wife etc. 

Edited October 30, 2020 by squirrelarmy

[tigger123]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-54742096
 

The irony of McCluskey now saying “a split party is doomed to defeat”. Yes Len, it is, that’s why you need to unite with the Labour Party (note it was the party not Starmer who suspended Corbyn). He threatens “chaos” as a result of Corbyn’s suspension, maybe he should swallow his pride and get behind the party line. It is partly in his hands whether or not the party is split following Corbyn’s suspension.

[zahidf]

4 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

Low democrat turnout in Florida's biggest county...squeaky bum time...

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/10/29/miami-voter-turnout-democrats-433643

Looking at the polls I fail to see any real movement. WI,MI and PA are all pretty steady or even seen slight movement towards Biden. The lowest for the 3 States is PA which depending where you look is averaging 4.5-5 points ahead, at this point Clinton was only 2 points ahead, and the District polling suggests this is under reporting Biden's lead, in fact in all 3 states the district polling show better Biden figures. In fact district polling shows Biden leading almost across the board.

https://onedrive.live.com/view.aspx?resid=700FD6570D12A4C1!6780&ithint=file,xlsx&authkey=!ANJLy-VxPT-0lnk

[steviewevie]

Just now, tigger123 said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-54742096
 

The irony of McCluskey now saying “a split party is doomed to defeat”. Yes Len, it is, that’s why you need to unite with the Labour Party (note it was the party not Starmer who suspended Corbyn). He threatens “chaos” as a result of Corbyn’s suspension, maybe he should swallow his pride and get behind the party line. It is partly in his hands whether or not the party is split following Corbyn’s suspension.

if they were grown up about this they would sit down and discuss this and then issue a joint statement...Corbyn can say something conciliatory and get his suspension lifted. Won't happen though.