When will this shit end?

[Ozanne]

1 minute ago, priest17 said:

The moon is an egg about to hatch so watch yourself.

I'd have egg on my face then that's for sure.

[priest17]

1 minute ago, steviewevie said:

No it isn't.

Is it?

Saw it on a documentary

[priest17]

I take it all back get Corbyn back ere now

 

[mattiloy]

21 minutes ago, kingbadger said:

Yes, Labour took a massive step to the left, new members came in etc. And ultimately the party under Corbyn's leadership handed over a 60+ seat to the Tories. Yes new members may have turned the party further to the left, but also made it unelectable. Being on the same side works both ways - Corbyn's leadership turned into a disaster and look where that's left us. He tried, he ended up failing spectacularly. And this is ultimately the issue in that there is no pragmatism on the far left, only idealism and a denial of the fact that to effect change you have to get into power. Labour became a protest party rather than a viable alternative. Corbyn lost great swathes of Labour heartland, half a million new members means nothing if you're yelling into an echo chamber. 

How is Starmer the villain in all this? Corbyn's leadership was a failure and all he had to do was acknowledge the report's findings and let everyone move on. Instead he wants to rip open the war wounds, and for what gain? To try and save face? This whole 'woe is me' from the far left is what will cost Labour in the future. Corbyn had 4/5 years, showed an abject failure in leadership in the 2016 referendum and then allowed Boris and then handed Boris a 60 seat majority on a platter in 2019. I supported Corbyn and am politically aligned with him on a lot of issues but its time to let it go. His tenure as leadership showed that the idealistic, far left approach just isn't tenable with the current political system we have. All he had to do to allow the party to move on and press forwards was to acknowledge the report and its findings and say no further. Instead he's decided to rip open the whole wound once again, for what? To save face? Starmer had no choice but to take decisive action. The buck stops with Corbyn, and what he has said today only reaffirms the content of that report.

I disagree and I can see that you are from the other camp from the bias and salty way you describe the new members so I'll just address that.

All those new members did not create an echo chamber, there is far more diversity and imagination in respect of policy ideas amongst those new members than existed in the old stagnant new labour.

Most Corbyn voters are pragmatic to an extent but it is my feeling and I think that of many of my peers, that radical change is needed to meet the uniquely difficult challenges of the 21st century. A minority might be old trots but most are young folks with a modern approach and new ideas - the party has rejected these.

It is clear that at its heart it is in fact a conservative party - in the sense that it is resistant to change and wants to preserve old power structures or at least change in a gradualist way. Corbynism, in line with the rest of the proliferation of red/green youth led movements across the world, just wanted to hurry things along a bit more. I don't think this is idealistic, I think its necessary.

Corbyn 'ripped open old wounds' because hes honest and was asked a question. Thats all. His comments were reasonable.

[steviewevie]

6 minutes ago, mattiloy said:

I disagree and I can see that you are from the other camp from the bias and salty way you describe the new members so I'll just address that.

All those new members did not create an echo chamber, there is far more diversity and imagination in respect of policy ideas amongst those new members than existed in the old stagnant new labour.

Most Corbyn voters are pragmatic to an extent but it is my feeling and I think that of many of my peers, that radical change is needed to meet the uniquely difficult challenges of the 21st century. A minority might be old trots but most are young folks with a modern approach and new ideas - the party has rejected these.

It is clear that at its heart it is in fact a conservative party - in the sense that it is resistant to change and wants to preserve old power structures or at least change in a gradualist way. Corbynism, in line with the rest of the proliferation of red/green youth led movements across the world, just wanted to hurry things along a bit more. I don't think this is idealistic, I think its necessary.

Corbyn 'ripped open old wounds' because hes honest and was asked a question. Thats all. His comments were reasonable.

Problem is labour under Corbyn's leadership lost the last election very badly and are now further away from power than ever. One of the reasons people were put off labour was the reports of antisemitism that kept coming. Now they've had this EHRC report, and Starmer wanted to accept all it's findings and then carry out all the report suggested to fix it. But, Corbyn then comes out with his semi apology that tried to put the blame elsewhere instead of taking responsibility so things could move on. He just doesn't think antisemitism is a problem.

Meanwhile...the tories march on.

[mattiloy]

1 minute ago, steviewevie said:

Problem is labour under Corbyn's leadership lost the last election very badly and are now further away from power than ever. One of the reasons people were put off labour was the reports of antisemitism that kept coming. Now they've had this EHRC report, and Starmer wanted to accept all it's findings and then carry out all the report suggested to fix it. But, Corbyn then comes out with his semi apology that tried to put the blame elsewhere instead of taking responsibility so things could move on. He just doesn't think antisemitism is a problem.

Meanwhile...the tories march on.

He specifically said ’one antisemite is one too many antisemite’.

Can we all agree that if We are going to comment about it we at least read/listen to all the source material properly.

Corbyn lost because of Brexit. Brexit happened because people go for extreme strategies when they feel powerless. Globalisation diminishes people’s sense of control over their destinies. Indeed is actually does diminish that control. They feel powerless, they react. The EU is the clearest manifestation of globalisation to these people.

Politics is about timing.

[kingbadger]

13 minutes ago, mattiloy said:

I disagree and I can see that you are from the other camp from the bias and salty way you describe the new members so I'll just address that.

All those new members did not create an echo chamber, there is far more diversity and imagination in respect of policy ideas amongst those new members than existed in the old stagnant new labour.

I was going to reply in full but the fact you've already made your mind up on who I am, what I believe in etc has put paid to that as it's clear you won't engage in a proper debate. I was one of those new members, I can remember feeling a real sense of change listening to Billy Bragg's speech at Kendal Calling supporting Corbyn's leadership bid. I voted for him both in leadership elections and both general elections. Corbynism is what got me involved in political discourse and becoming active to start with. The fact you refer to me as 'biased and salty' without even knowing the barest of facts shows what is fundamentally wrong with the factional nature of the Labour Party. I'd have loved to have seen a Corbyn leading a Labour or coalition government but it became abundantly clear after 2017 that he had become somewhat of a busted flush and would never reach those heights again. 

[Fuzzy Afro]

3 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

Problem is labour under Corbyn's leadership lost the last election very badly and are now further away from power than ever. One of the reasons people were put off labour was the reports of antisemitism that kept coming. Now they've had this EHRC report, and Starmer wanted to accept all it's findings and then carry out all the report suggested to fix it. But, Corbyn then comes out with his semi apology that tried to put the blame elsewhere instead of taking responsibility so things could move on. He just doesn't think antisemitism is a problem.

Meanwhile...the tories march on.

A lot of the left barely even deny anti semitism any more, they just think anti semitism isn’t a bad thing. It baffles me how many British people are armchair experts on the Middle East peace process. 

[steviewevie]

4 minutes ago, mattiloy said:

He specifically said ’one antisemite is one too many antisemite’.

Can we all agree that if We are going to comment about it we at least read/listen to all the source material properly.

Corbyn lost because of Brexit. Brexit happened because people go for extreme strategies when they feel powerless. Globalisation diminishes people’s sense of control over their destinies. Indeed is actually does diminish that control. They feel powerless, they react. The EU is the clearest manifestation of globalisation to these people.

Politics is about timing.

he didn't lose just because of brexit.

[steviewevie]

5 minutes ago, mattiloy said:

Can we all agree that if We are going to comment about it we at least read/listen to all the source material properly.

 

“One antisemite is one too many, but the scale of the problem was also dramatically overstated for political reasons by our opponents inside and outside the party, as well as by much of the media.

“That combination hurt Jewish people and must never be repeated. My sincere hope is that relations with Jewish communities can be rebuilt and those fears overcome. While I do not accept all of its findings, I trust its recommendations will be swiftly implemented to help move on from this period.”

[Fuzzy Afro]

1 minute ago, steviewevie said:

“One antisemite is one too many, but the scale of the problem was also dramatically overstated for political reasons by our opponents inside and outside the party, as well as by much of the media.

“That combination hurt Jewish people and must never be repeated. My sincere hope is that relations with Jewish communities can be rebuilt and those fears overcome. While I do not accept all of its findings, I trust its recommendations will be swiftly implemented to help move on from this period.”

The two bolded bits are why he had to go 

[mattiloy]

2 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

“One antisemite is one too many, but the scale of the problem was also dramatically overstated for political reasons by our opponents inside and outside the party, as well as by much of the media.

“That combination hurt Jewish people and must never be repeated. My sincere hope is that relations with Jewish communities can be rebuilt and those fears overcome. While I do not accept all of its findings, I trust its recommendations will be swiftly implemented to help move on from this period.”

You think any of that is unreasonable or deliberately and maliciously crass? Because I don’t. I think it’s a fair summary.

[Fuzzy Afro]

1 minute ago, mattiloy said:

You think any of that is unreasonable or deliberately and maliciously crass? Because I don’t. I think it’s a fair summary.

Well it isn’t. He made life very easy for Starmer by rubbishing the report and claiming the anti semitism was overrated 

[mattiloy]

7 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

he didn't lose just because of brexit.

I’m from a (still labour) red wall seat. I can assure you he lost because of brexit and not because of this antisemitism circus.

[fraybentos1]

13 minutes ago, mattiloy said:

Corbyn lost because of Brexit.

Nope

[mattiloy]

Just now, fraybentos1 said:

Nope

Yep

[mattiloy]

[priest17]

17 minutes ago, mattiloy said:

He specifically said ’one antisemite is one too many antisemite’.

Can we all agree that if We are going to comment about it we at least read/listen to all the source material properly.

Corbyn lost because of Brexit. Brexit happened because people go for extreme strategies when they feel powerless. Globalisation diminishes people’s sense of control over their destinies. Indeed is actually does diminish that control. They feel powerless, they react. The EU is the clearest manifestation of globalisation to these people.

Politics is about timing.

Which when you consider he both went missing during the remain campaign and also has said numerous times he wanted Brexit is... I dunno it's not funny. Ironic?

[Ozanne]

2 minutes ago, mattiloy said:

Sorry but in a YouGov poll just after the GE, Corbyn was sighted as the main reason Labour voters switched. 

[fraybentos1]

8 minutes ago, mattiloy said:

Look at what @Ozannejust posted which is what I was going to reply with.

Frankly to disregard Corbyn himself as a key factor in the humiliating loss is just burying ur head in the sand.

[mattiloy]

7 minutes ago, Ozanne said:

Sorry but in a YouGov poll just after the GE, Corbyn was sighted as the main reason Labour voters switched. 

This surveys those who voted labour in 2017 - which excludes most brexiteers because this is post brexit so these are mostly the centrists who lent their vote to him in 2017 in an anyone but Brexit Tories.

So 2017 was Tory/Brexit vs Anyone but tory 

2019 was Tory/Brexit vs (Anyone but Tory - Lib dem defectors)

[mattiloy]

And 2024 will be Tory/Brexit vs (anyone but Tory - the left)

So same result.

[zahidf]

Coronavirus: Eat Out to Help Out 'accelerated second wave of COVID-19', study says

Research from the university suggests that between 8% and 17% of newly detected infection clusters can be linked to the scheme.

By Alexa Phillips"

https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-eat-out-to-help-out-accelerated-second-wave-of-covid-19-study-says-12118285

[mcshed]

7 hours ago, mattiloy said:

You think any of that is unreasonable or deliberately and maliciously crass? Because I don’t. I think it’s a fair summary.

The thing is whilst it may be true that some people where weaponising anti-semitism against Corbyn, the leadership making that the issue undermined the response to the genuine problem underneath. That's why the EHRC specifically takes issue with responses minimising the seriousness of the problem.

In his position as ex-leader his response to that report cannot be that people have exaggerated the problem. If something goes wrong and you're in charge you deal with it you don't downplay it that's responsibility.

[Lycra]

7 hours ago, mattiloy said:

This surveys those who voted labour in 2017 - which excludes most brexiteers because this is post brexit so these are mostly the centrists who lent their vote to him in 2017 in an anyone but Brexit Tories.

So 2017 was Tory/Brexit vs Anyone but tory 

2019 was Tory/Brexit vs (Anyone but Tory - Lib dem defectors)

My parents, both life long Labour voters/supporters, did not vote Labour at the last election specifically because of Jeremy Corbyn. And it can't be excused as a Left v Right issue as they're both socialists and had previously supported a well known left wing firebrand MP for decades.