When will this shit end?

[steviewevie]

4 minutes ago, mattiloy said:

Green I guess. If I vote on principle I will always have a clean conscience. Luckily I was too young but I can't imagine how disgusted with myself I'd feel if I voted for Blair just to 'keep the tories out' and then got all the wars and corruption that followed

all good....but with our voting system, and depending on where you live of course...that just helps the tories.

And comparing Starmer with Blair at this point is silly. This is about an EHRC report on antisemitism in labour, not whether Starmer will push the country into illegal wars or not.

[steviewevie]

6 minutes ago, mattiloy said:

100%. And its still close!

I really don't see Starmer winning in 2024. If he does it'll be propped up by the SNP and he'll have to agree to a second referendum.

No, I don't see him winning either. I don't see labour led by anyone winning...although at same time if this government keep fucking up you never know.

[Ozanne]

1 minute ago, eFestivals said:

Well, apart from adding to the chance of Tory victory (depending where you live, of course. feckin fptp).

The thing with all or nothing ideologues on the left is that they help the Tories win.

For all the while we have fptp a victory for the left requires people on the left to compromise.

How much do you really want something better than the Tories, or is polishing your halo enough for you?

A key policy that Starmer should adopt should be voting reform and PR. It's the only way to assure we never get a Tory majority again. 

[eFestivals]

1 minute ago, Ozanne said:

A key policy that Starmer should adopt should be voting reform and PR. It's the only way to assure we never get a Tory majority again. 

I wouldn't be so sure about that. It's what voters want that counts, and the right is much better at unity than the left. 

 

 

[steviewevie]

My brother lives in US and can vote there...and in last election he voted for some 3rd party green candidate because he absolutely fucking despised Clinton for some reason...she was just evil...he hated Trump of course, but nothing like the disgust he had for Clinton. 

He's a silly twat my brother. He's voting Biden this time although he has to keep telling me he doesn't like Biden either, because he is a pure socialist, capitalism is evil, hates the US, hates Israel etc etc.

Still, he has a nice big house in the suburbs, he's doing ok...

[steviewevie]

The greatest tragedy of England's second wave is that it wasn't inevitable

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/oct/29/england-second-wave-government-covid

[steviewevie]

John Crace on the labour antisemitism thing...

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/oct/29/antisemitism-report-opens-up-labours-fault-line-all-over-again

[stuartbert two hats]

44 minutes ago, mattiloy said:

Green I guess. If I vote on principle I will always have a clean conscience. Luckily I was too young but I can't imagine how disgusted with myself I'd feel if I voted for Blair just to 'keep the tories out' and then got all the wars and corruption that followed

If the Tories won because I thought my principles were more important than keeping children out of poverty, I don't think I'd be able to sleep at night. Every centre right new Labour compromise candidate is better than Boris or Cameron.

It doesn't mean we should just disengage with the political process and take whatever we're given, but whilst we have a FPTP voting system, voting Green is as good as a* vote for the Tories.

I voted for Blair to keep the Tories out and it kept the Tories out. Any self loathing I might have had was eased greatly when the Tories came back into power and reminded me why I didn't want them in.

*Arguably half a vote, depending on how you think about the maths.

[stuartbert two hats]

38 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

I wouldn't be so sure about that. It's what voters want that counts, and the right is much better at unity than the left. 

Unity not so important with a proper voting system. After all, remain parties got more votes in the last election. Despite the 80 seat majority, the Tories didn't actually win a majority of the popular vote.

[Mr.Tease]

1 hour ago, mattiloy said:

The difference is Biden didn't kick Bernie Sanders out of the party on trumped up charges...

Yup! Imagine what a own-goal it would have been if he had

[steviewevie]

Isn't it just UK and Belarus that use FPTP in Europe?

[steviewevie]

 

[zahidf]

16 minutes ago, Mr.Tease said:

Yup! Imagine what a own-goal it would have been if he had

Bernie isn't a democrat

[Fuzzy Afro]

French are all fleeing Paris before lockdown 

[Ozanne]

34 minutes ago, stuartbert two hats said:

Unity not so important with a proper voting system. After all, remain parties got more votes in the last election. Despite the 80 seat majority, the Tories didn't actually win a majority of the popular vote.

I think that's quite common here isn't it?

[stuartbert two hats]

12 minutes ago, Ozanne said:

I think that's quite common here isn't it?

I think it's quite extreme to get an 80 seat majority without an overall majority. Although you do make me want to check out the numbers.

[Ozanne]

1 minute ago, stuartbert two hats said:

I think it's quite extreme to get an 80 seat majority without an overall majority. Although you do make me want to check out the numbers.

I'm being lazy, you are probably right with the 80 seat majority part.

[Ozanne]

4 minutes ago, stuartbert two hats said:

I think it's quite extreme to get an 80 seat majority without an overall majority. Although you do make me want to check out the numbers.

Labour in 97 got 43.2% of the vote in their landslide victory.

[mattiloy]

1 hour ago, eFestivals said:

Well, apart from adding to the chance of Tory victory (depending where you live, of course. feckin fptp).

The thing with all or nothing ideologues on the left is that they help the Tories win.

For all the while we have fptp a victory for the left requires people on the left to compromise.

How much do you really want something better than the Tories, or is polishing your halo enough for you?

You can see evidence for my openness to starmer’s leadership in this very forum but whilst I’m happy to compromise on many things, the way Corbyn has been treated is appalling. I don’t trust Starmer anymore, he’s a snide. I won’t be voting for the labour party under him.

I’ll go further - under Corbyn, the labour party increased membership. The membership took over various parts of the internal machinery and started to change the discourse to be more progressive. We were called insurgents and trots - half a million of us. There was an active campaign to shed this new membership and return labour party politics to being the plaything of a few politics nerds who didnt want their little club infiltrated by normal people who would dilute their power. They’ve done it, congrats to them, another nail in the coffin of democracy.

There is only one reason people voted brexit, trump, Johnson. When people feel powerless, they make more extreme decisions. Keir Starmer is making people feel powerless again and it will have repercussions. This is a treaty of versailles moment, Starmer is clemenceau. Not satisfied with ousting Corbyn he has made a martyr of him and publicly humiliated the movement. For what? Arent we supposed to be on the same side?

[steviewevie]

3 minutes ago, mattiloy said:

You can see evidence for my openness to starmer’s leadership in this very forum but whilst I’m happy to compromise on many things, the way Corbyn has been treated is appalling. I don’t trust Starmer anymore, he’s a snide. I won’t be voting for the labour party under him.

I’ll go further - under Corbyn, the labour party increased membership. The membership took over various parts of the internal machinery and started to change the discourse to be more progressive. We were called insurgents and trots - half a million of us. There was an active campaign to shed this new membership and return labour party politics to being the plaything of a few politics nerds who didnt want their little club infiltrated by normal people who would dilute their power. They’ve done it, congrats to them, another nail in the coffin of democracy.

There is only one reason people voted brexit, trump, Johnson. When people feel powerless, they make more extreme decisions. Keir Starmer is making people feel powerless again and it will have repercussions. This is a treaty of versailles moment, Starmer is clemenceau. Not satisfied with ousting Corbyn he has made a martyr of him and publicly humiliated the movement. For what? Arent we supposed to be on the same side?

see...there was this report into antisemitism in Labour...etc.

[Simsy]

1 hour ago, eFestivals said:

Well, apart from adding to the chance of Tory victory (depending where you live, of course. feckin fptp).

The thing with all or nothing ideologues on the left is that they help the Tories win.

For all the while we have fptp a victory for the left requires people on the left to compromise.

How much do you really want something better than the Tories, or is polishing your halo enough for you?

Yep, I voted green in 2015 cos they're the ones I most agree with. Tories won my constituency (for the 1st time in decades). Haven't made that mistake again & luckily the Tory got kicked out in 2017.

I'll start voting for the party I want once we've got rid of fptp.

[Ozanne]

1 minute ago, Simsy said:

Yep, I voted green in 2015 cos they're the ones I most agree with. Tories won my constituency (for the 1st time in decades). Haven't made that mistake again & luckily the Tory got kicked out in 2017.

I'll start voting for the party I want once we've got rid of fptp.

I wish we could get the Tory MP kicked out of Worthing West  

[mattiloy]

10 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

see...there was this report into antisemitism in Labour...etc.

oh yeah, was that the same one which concluded that corbyn wasn't personally responsible for any antisemitism and pointed out that improvements were made once iain mcnicol, who leaked whatsapp messages have since shown was actively undermining corbyn, was replaced as general secretary.

then sure, you're right, jeremy corbyn, long time anti racism campaigner, jam making, bicycling septugenarian, deserves to be labelled an antisemite and cast out of the party that he has been a member of, campaigned for and served as an MP for for the best part of 50 years.

its shameless. i hope he does them for bullying or constructed dismissal or something.

[Simsy]

3 minutes ago, Ozanne said:

I wish we could get the Tory MP kicked out of Worthing West  

I wish we could get them kicked out of the country 😂

Grew up in a Tory stronghold, so I know how depressing it is knowing your vote will do fuck all.

[steviewevie]

2 minutes ago, mattiloy said:

oh yeah, was that the same one which concluded that corbyn wasn't personally responsible for any antisemitism and pointed out that improvements were made once iain mcnicol, who leaked whatsapp messages have since shown was actively undermining corbyn, was replaced as general secretary.

then sure, you're right, jeremy corbyn, long time anti racism campaigner, jam making, bicycling septugenarian, deserves to be labelled an antisemite and cast out of the party that he has been a member of, campaigned for and served as an MP for for the best part of 50 years.

its shameless. i hope he does them for bullying or constructed dismissal or something.

not that report, the other one.