When will this shit end?

[Toilet Duck]

Just now, BobWillis said:

At least once a decade the NHS is in complete crisis and patients are being stepped over in corridors as if they have no dignity and people are needlessly dying in their own homes because ambulances can’t unload their patients into hospitals until a bed comes free so they cannot attend the next call.
When have we ever been locked down for that?

When have we ever delayed cancer diagnosis and treatment for that? 

The world doesn’t need to revolve around Covid. 

 

We've been through this before. Nobody is minimising the impact of other causes of death, but they don't have the potential for exponential growth. You do get this?

[circus92]

4 minutes ago, Toilet Duck said:

Exactly!...but even a 24h turnaround in this case wasn't quick enough (and isn't if people make no changes to behaviour while they wait). Rapid tests are the only answer (and they need to trigger proper management...plus repeated rapid tests for close contacts for a few days til they get the all clear). 

Faster tests would be great, but would it really have been too much to ask these idiots to moderate their behaviour slightly.  She showed enough symptoms to merit getting a test, but was unable to make the sensible call to not attend a party for one night.  Incredibly selfish.  People need to take some personal responsibility

[Reckoner]

4 minutes ago, Mr.Tease said:

I find it bizarre some people genuinely think that people are going to go out and do their hobbies and carry on with their normal lives with mass prevalence of covid and a overwhelmed, non-functioning NHS- the economy will still take a huge hit and there will be less financial support for people.

Also not to mention that it’s not as simple as Vulnerable person = shield, not scared of COVID = go to pub

For that to actually work, you’d need anyone who comes into contact with a vulnerable person to shield as well. Doctors and nurses, lock yourselves down. Housemate a nurse? Too bad, you’re shielding now as well. You can co-opt @Toilet Duck real example above to illustrate it (EDIT:actually, that's obviously his point). Everything and everyone is connected. Unless you have mitigating measures to break those links which cause community transmission, then you will never have any hope of controlling the spread. 

[Homer]

10 minutes ago, BobWillis said:

At least once a decade the NHS is in complete crisis and patients are being stepped over in corridors as if they have no dignity and people are needlessly dying in their own homes because ambulances can’t unload their patients into hospitals until a bed comes free so they cannot attend the next call.
When have we ever been locked down for that?

When have we ever delayed cancer diagnosis and treatment for that? 

The world doesn’t need to revolve around Covid. 

 

My understanding is that in places where the virus has really let rip (northern Italy, New York), they've had bodies piling up in the street/in homes and tough decisions made in hospitals about who to treat and who to leave to die. And that was with some social distancing, etc measures in place. Or am I missing something?

[Crazyfool01]

3 minutes ago, Gregfc15 said:

Also not to mention that it’s not as simple as Vulnerable person = shield, not scared of COVID = go to pub

For that to actually work, you’d need anyone who comes into contact with a vulnerable person to shield as well. Doctors and nurses, lock yourselves down. Housemate a nurse? Too bad, you’re shielding now as well. You can co-opt @Toilet Duck real example above to illustrate it (EDIT:actually, that's obviously his point). Everything and everyone is connected. Unless you have mitigating measures to break those links which cause community transmission, then you will never have any hope of controlling the spread. 

We had a case recently where the daughter of someone I work with had been in contact with a positive case at her school (sitting next to her in most classes ) and was isolating ... yet her mum was able to work ... I was backing away slowly as she was telling me this ... now of course the chain might not continue ... and it must stop somewhere ... but it got a little close for me .... and I’m pretty sure we will all have similar tales to tell 

[Fuzzy Afro]

8 minutes ago, Gregfc15 said:

Also not to mention that it’s not as simple as Vulnerable person = shield, not scared of COVID = go to pub

For that to actually work, you’d need anyone who comes into contact with a vulnerable person to shield as well. Doctors and nurses, lock yourselves down. Housemate a nurse? Too bad, you’re shielding now as well. You can co-opt @Toilet Duck real example above to illustrate it (EDIT:actually, that's obviously his point). Everything and everyone is connected. Unless you have mitigating measures to break those links which cause community transmission, then you will never have any hope of controlling the spread. 

 

I mean not really, absolutely no one is suggesting that ALL vulnerable people can be protected. It's to do with reducing the number of deaths, not stopping them altogether.

[steviewevie]

18 minutes ago, BobWillis said:

At least once a decade the NHS is in complete crisis and patients are being stepped over in corridors as if they have no dignity and people are needlessly dying in their own homes because ambulances can’t unload their patients into hospitals until a bed comes free so they cannot attend the next call.
When have we ever been locked down for that?

When have we ever delayed cancer diagnosis and treatment for that? 

The world doesn’t need to revolve around Covid. 

 

this is worse (potentially).

[steviewevie]

6 minutes ago, crazyfool1 said:

We had a case recently where the daughter of someone I work with had been in contact with a positive case at her school (sitting next to her in most classes ) and was isolating ... yet her mum was able to work ... I was backing away slowly as she was telling me this ... now of course the chain might not continue ... and it must stop somewhere ... but it got a little close for me .... and I’m pretty sure we will all have similar tales to tell 

yep, happened to me...my kid had to stay isolate as few people in her class had it, and I went into work! (only on first day, stayed home after that until kid was back in school).

[squirrelarmy]

7 minutes ago, crazyfool1 said:

We had a case recently where the daughter of someone I work with had been in contact with a positive case at her school (sitting next to her in most classes ) and was isolating ... yet her mum was able to work ... I was backing away slowly as she was telling me this ... now of course the chain might not continue ... and it must stop somewhere ... but it got a little close for me .... and I’m pretty sure we will all have similar tales to tell 

A friend of mine lives with her sister. Her sister is a teacher and currently isolating. My friend is still allowed out to work and socialise. She’s not being social but she’s still having to work. 

[gigpusher]

One of my colleagues in Barcelona has been in contact with someone who has COVID so she's going for a test today and should get the results in 20 minutes. How the other half live!!

[Reckoner]

8 minutes ago, Fuzzy Afro said:

I mean not really, absolutely no one is suggesting that ALL vulnerable people can be protected. It's to do with reducing the number of deaths, not stopping them altogether.

Of course. That’s why proponents of some type of “live with it, let me go to the pub” new normal people  are living in fantasyland, especially with community transmission running unchecked. 

[JoeyT]

1 minute ago, gigpusher said:

One of my colleagues in Barcelona has been in contact with someone who has COVID so she's going for a test today and should get the results in 20 minutes. How the other half live!!

I really don't understand how we are still so far behind in the UK in this regard?

Other countries (Dubai springs to mind as one i've read of recently) are doing rapid testing / results.

We're supposed to be one of the world's leading yet we're eating everyone else's dust!

[Crazyfool01]

6 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

yep, happened to me...my kid had to stay isolate as few people in her class had it, and I went into work! (only on first day, stayed home after that until kid was back in school).

 

5 minutes ago, squirrelarmy said:

A friend of mine lives with her sister. Her sister is a teacher and currently isolating. My friend is still allowed out to work and socialise. She’s not being social but she’s still having to work. 

This is where we can really make a difference ... maybe these cases shouldn’t isolate ... I’m not sure but they should be very very careful about exposure to others ... and I’d hasten to say wear a facemask at all times ... and massively limit contacts ... but I guess people can’t understand simple things like toilet duck posted then further down the chain it’s going to be harder 

[st dan]

https://ig.ft.com/coronavirus-global-data

Found this a great read. 

[Mr.Tease]

 

[Ozanne]

Just now, Mr.Tease said:

 

This is what happens when you have a muppet in charge during a crisis.

[squirrelarmy]

9 minutes ago, Ozanne said:

This is what happens when you have a muppet in charge during a crisis.

Especially when our muppet is more interested in chasing Miss Piggy instead of running the country. 

[Mellotr0n]

Definitely some positive noises starting to come along, vaccines wise.

Have a friend who works ground crew at an airport - he and his colleagues have been put on standby to help with delivery of vaccines into the country in November.

We're expecting data from Pfizer around 3rd week of November, and AstraZeneca not long after. Looking like first vaccines (if approved) will be going into UK citizens around end of 2020/very early 2021.

Initially they will of course go to care workers, the vulnerable, high risk etc - but immunising the most at-risk 10-20% of the country will likely have a massive effect on death rates.

This is a useful read on what the process to approval is, and how it looks likely Pfizer will win the race.

https://www.pfizer.com/news/hot-topics/an_open_letter_from_pfizer_chairman_and_ceo_albert_bourla

Keep going everyone - 2021's going to be a lot better.

Edited October 19, 2020 by Mellotr0n

[DeanoL]

 

12 hours ago, Fuzzy Afro said:

Sweden has lived with it since day 1. More deaths and less economic damage, but crucially they aren’t stuck in purgatory waiting for a vaccine. 

Basic rate of income tax in Sweden is about 32%, going up to 52% once you earn more than £40k. (Compared to 20% and 40% over 50k in the UK). Tax free allowance is £1750 compared to £10k here. Corporation tax is 22% compared to 19%. Capital gains is 30% vs 20%.

Are all those in favour of us adopting the Swedish approach going to also push for these sort of tax rates, so we'll be in a position to do so should this happen again?

12 hours ago, Fuzzy Afro said:

The idea would be that we put a maximum date on restrictions. If no vaccine by then, scrap them anyway and let everyone get on with their lives 

This is a genuine question - what do you think would happen if we decided to just do that? Say now, or in January? How are you going to make everyone "get on with their lives". I get that you're not scared of it, but loads of people are. And loads more will be if they're told there won't be enough hospital beds if they do get ill.

I've said it a few times now: the pubs aren't full. Even with reduced capacity, you can get space. Most people are not going out, even where they can. This is what I think would happen:

You can have the government drop all restrictions but that won't magically make life go back to normal. It won't magically make people feel safe. The opposite will happen. Gigs won't happen because they won't be able to sell enough tickets. Pubs will close as there won't be enough people there. There will be huge societal division because, what did we call them, the "work-from-home virtue signaling middle classes" will remain working from home (because no employee wants to risk losing half their workforce to COVID) while those doing other jobs will be forced back into them with no financial support. The demand in loads of industries will have fallen off so there will be more mass redundancies.

I get that you want your life back, I really do. But I promise you, that's not going to happen by the government declaring that it's over, and we'll just accept the deaths. Especially as there will be a vaccine at some point in the next 3-18 months - so in the main, those who can afford to lockdown, will continue to do so. 

The idea that "it's not just about you" and social responsibility have been discussed at length already, but the thing people really need to understand is "your own way of life is not just about you" - you might be ready to start going out again, damn the consequences. But are all the people you need to support your lifestyle ready to do the same? Are your friends? Your sports teammates? The bands you want to go see? The promoters that run your gigs? Because if they're staying in, you still don't have your life back.

It's not enough to drop the restrictions. We have do that while making people feel safe. "We don't have hospital capacity but we're okay with you dying" will not do that!

[Fuzzy Afro]

Looks like Wales is going ahead with the circuit breaker, details in the next hour or so

[Fuzzy Afro]

7 minutes ago, DeanoL said:

 

Basic rate of income tax in Sweden is about 32%, going up to 52% once you earn more than £40k. (Compared to 20% and 40% over 50k in the UK). Tax free allowance is £1750 compared to £10k here. Corporation tax is 22% compared to 19%. Capital gains is 30% vs 20%.

Are all those in favour of us adopting the Swedish approach going to also push for these sort of tax rates, so we'll be in a position to do so should this happen again?

This is a genuine question - what do you think would happen if we decided to just do that? Say now, or in January? How are you going to make everyone "get on with their lives". I get that you're not scared of it, but loads of people are. And loads more will be if they're told there won't be enough hospital beds if they do get ill.

I've said it a few times now: the pubs aren't full. Even with reduced capacity, you can get space. Most people are not going out, even where they can. This is what I think would happen:

You can have the government drop all restrictions but that won't magically make life go back to normal. It won't magically make people feel safe. The opposite will happen. Gigs won't happen because they won't be able to sell enough tickets. Pubs will close as there won't be enough people there. There will be huge societal division because, what did we call them, the "work-from-home virtue signaling middle classes" will remain working from home (because no employee wants to risk losing half their workforce to COVID) while those doing other jobs will be forced back into them with no financial support. The demand in loads of industries will have fallen off so there will be more mass redundancies.

I get that you want your life back, I really do. But I promise you, that's not going to happen by the government declaring that it's over, and we'll just accept the deaths. Especially as there will be a vaccine at some point in the next 3-18 months - so in the main, those who can afford to lockdown, will continue to do so. 

The idea that "it's not just about you" and social responsibility have been discussed at length already, but the thing people really need to understand is "your own way of life is not just about you" - you might be ready to start going out again, damn the consequences. But are all the people you need to support your lifestyle ready to do the same? Are your friends? Your sports teammates? The bands you want to go see? The promoters that run your gigs? Because if they're staying in, you still don't have your life back.

It's not enough to drop the restrictions. We have do that while making people feel safe. "We don't have hospital capacity but we're okay with you dying" will not do that!

 

You've missed the point then, because I'm not suggesting that large scale gigs or sporting events would even be back, I'd just like to be allowed to visit my parents and friends legally.

[DeanoL]

On 10/18/2020 at 9:00 AM, eFestivals said:

it's for the USA. It cannot be to do directly with brexit as it's something they could have done at any time, no brexit required. I don't doubt that the timing has been tied in with brexit but that's not quite the same thing.

And anyway (excluding everything about brexit), is what Shatner mentions it a bad thing (if it's even accurate?)?

In theory an improved way of trading can only be a good thing, and while there's the desire for the UK to have overseas traders pre-submit paperwork and payment, I can't see how it stops those who don't from selling to the UK; it'll simply mean their goods will go thru the same expensive, clunky and slow system that currently exists.

Brexit is happening whether we like it or not. Anything which helps smooth trade after brexit should be encouraged.

I looked into this and there are some details here: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/changes-to-vat-treatment-of-overseas-goods-sold-to-customers-from-1-january-2021/changes-to-vat-treatment-of-overseas-goods-sold-to-customers-from-1-january-2021

It seems kinda fucked to be but would be interested in your thoughts. I also don't get how they'll enforce it - I guess they could just return goods that don't have the VAT pre-paid to the seller. There seems to be some sort of talk about putting the obligation on the importers. It does seem like the old clunky system won't exist any more, at least for goods under £135.

I admit the current system is clunky and something of a rip-off, but it also meant anywhere could sell to the UK, and shipping to the UK was simple, so most companies would do so. I could buy something from the US and I'd have to deal with paying VAT and an admin charge when it arrived but I could buy it. Whatever I wanted. I had access to pretty much any shop around the world. I'm not sure that will be the case any more. While I like to think there will be a solution, I can also see the UK being added to that list of countries a lot of places don't ship to, because of the requirements. And I also wonder if that's part of the intent (to force the public to buy from UK retailers).

On 10/17/2020 at 9:13 AM, squirrelarmy said:

Is this aimed purely at retail importers or will this also apply to private sellers who sell to the UK such as those who sell through Ebay, Amazon, Wish etc? 

In those cases, the obligation to collect the VAT is on Ebay or Amazon, not the individual seller. If you're a private person making a sale ("not a business", whatever that means) you're also exempt.

[Zoo Music Girl]

1 hour ago, Gregfc15 said:

Also not to mention that it’s not as simple as Vulnerable person = shield, not scared of COVID = go to pub

For that to actually work, you’d need anyone who comes into contact with a vulnerable person to shield as well. Doctors and nurses, lock yourselves down. Housemate a nurse? Too bad, you’re shielding now as well. You can co-opt @Toilet Duck real example above to illustrate it (EDIT:actually, that's obviously his point). Everything and everyone is connected. Unless you have mitigating measures to break those links which cause community transmission, then you will never have any hope of controlling the spread. 

Out of upvotes but thank you for making this point better than my previous attempts! Vulnerable people don't live in completely isolated bubbles.

[Fuzzy Afro]

1 minute ago, Zoo Music Girl said:

Out of upvotes but thank you for making this point better than my previous attempts! Vulnerable people don't live in completely isolated bubbles.

Has anyone suggested that they do?

[phimill]

11 minutes ago, Mellotr0n said:

Definitely some positive noises starting to come along, vaccines wise.

Have a friend who works ground crew at an airport - he and his colleagues have been put on standby to help with delivery of vaccines into the country in November.

We're expecting data from Pfizer around 3rd week of November, and AstraZeneca not long after. Looking like first vaccines (if approved) will be going into UK citizens around end of 2020/very early 2021.

Initially they will of course go to care workers, the vulnerable, high risk etc - but immunising the most at-risk 10-20% of the country will likely have a massive effect on death rates.

This is a useful read on what the process to approval is, and how it looks likely Pfizer will win the race.

https://www.pfizer.com/news/hot-topics/an_open_letter_from_pfizer_chairman_and_ceo_albert_bourla

Keep going everyone - 2021's going to be a lot better.

This is great news - they must have significant confidence in early data reviews to give an update like this.

Would it be possible that they are in discussions with governments with stakes in the vaccine about the data they are seeing? If so, it could be the reason Boris and Co are pushing for the tier approach and delaying a possible circuit break. 

We can begin to see the light! It wont be too far away now!