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When will this shit end?


Chrisp1986

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24 minutes ago, Toilet Duck said:

Actually, looking at the way government procurement has been run during the pandemic, it’s pretty clear why the Tories are so in favour of Brexit and don’t want anything to do with EU level playing field rules (otherwise all this stuff would have to go out to tender and EU companies could bid for it)...

The EU actually gave out guidance in March or April highlighting that emergency provisions within their directives exist for such urgent situations, allowing non tendered procurement in many cases and applies to all countries so, unfortunately, all within the rules.UK still subject to these directives while in the transition period.

"Negotiated procedure without prior publication
As explained in the Guidance ’this will allow for a faster awarding of contracts to provide for COVID-19 pandemic related needs.’ Under Article 32(2) (c) of Directive 2014/24/EU contracting authorities may only use this procedure ‘in so far as it is strictly necessary where, for reasons of extreme urgency brought about by events unforeseeable by the contracting authority, the time limits for the open or restricted procedures or competitive procedures with negotiation cannot be complied with. The circumstances invoked to justify extreme urgency shall not in any event be attributable to the contracting authority.’!

https://www.eipa.eu/eu-public-procurement-policy-in-the-context-of-covid-19/

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1 minute ago, Copperface said:

The EU actually gave out guidance in March or April highlighting that emergency provisions within their directives exist for such urgent situations, allowing non tendered procurement in many cases and applies to all countries so, unfortunately, all within the rules.UK still subject to these directives while in the transition period.

"Negotiated procedure without prior publication
As explained in the Guidance ’this will allow for a faster awarding of contracts to provide for COVID-19 pandemic related needs.’ Under Article 32(2) (c) of Directive 2014/24/EU contracting authorities may only use this procedure ‘in so far as it is strictly necessary where, for reasons of extreme urgency brought about by events unforeseeable by the contracting authority, the time limits for the open or restricted procedures or competitive procedures with negotiation cannot be complied with. The circumstances invoked to justify extreme urgency shall not in any event be attributable to the contracting authority.’!

https://www.eipa.eu/eu-public-procurement-policy-in-the-context-of-covid-19/

Oh yeah, but it probably gives a glimpse of what’s to come when not in an emergency (maybe not and I’m just biased as I don’t trust them!). Though I thought I heard something about the UK signing up to WTO procurement rules last week (which includes EU countries as well). Not sure what it means, I’m entirely out of my sphere of expertise here! 

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4 minutes ago, Toilet Duck said:

Oh yeah, but it probably gives a glimpse of what’s to come when not in an emergency (maybe not and I’m just biased as I don’t trust them!). Though I thought I heard something about the UK signing up to WTO procurement rules last week (which includes EU countries as well). Not sure what it means, I’m entirely out of my sphere of expertise here! 

Yep, was just the UK joining the WTO GPA in the event of no deal where the UK would not be covered by the EU GPA (Govt Procurement Agreement). Not sure that much will change, Accountability still needed.

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49 minutes ago, gigpusher said:

It was spiteful and cruel in my opinion. Don't get me wrong the rule of 6 would mean we wouldn't be able to see most family over Christmas if it stays but at least we can prepare in advance for it. If they did what they did with Eid on Christmas Eve nobody would adhere to it. 

bet it was popular in focus groups though....

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10 minutes ago, Toilet Duck said:

Oh yeah, but it probably gives a glimpse of what’s to come when not in an emergency (maybe not and I’m just biased as I don’t trust them!). Though I thought I heard something about the UK signing up to WTO procurement rules last week (which includes EU countries as well). Not sure what it means, I’m entirely out of my sphere of expertise here! 

I have no doubt this is what the future will bring, but hopefully they'll learn that for a quiet life they can give the money to their mates AND receive something in return. Much simpler for everyone

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I'm not actually that fussed about Christmas at the moment. I've got one daughter who is a 3rd year student in Liverpool living in Wavertree and another who is at Newcastle - both in houses rather than halls. Boyfriend of one in Leeds has Covid and it is rife among their peers but they don't seem that worried. Add in elderly relatives and some relations with conditions that make them vulnerable and I'm more on the side of asking them to stay in their bubbles and households away from me at the moment and over Christmas if necessary, 

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4 minutes ago, Copperface said:

Yep, was just the UK joining the WTO GPA in the event of no deal where the UK would not be covered by the EU GPA (Govt Procurement Agreement). Not sure that much will change, Accountability still needed.

I'm not sure what your background is but you do seem very knowledgeable on the current government protocols so I'd be interested to know what your views are on these ludicrous contracts getting awarded to new companies started by people who just happen to be best buddies with the Tory elite. Because to the uneducated it seems shady as shit.

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3 minutes ago, SheffJeff said:

I'm not sure what your background is but you do seem very knowledgeable on the current government protocols so I'd be interested to know what your views are on these ludicrous contracts getting awarded to new companies started by people who just happen to be best buddies with the Tory elite. Because to the uneducated it seems shady as shit.

It is shady, but it's allowed. The fly in the ointment will eventually be the National Audit Office when they eventually get around their backlog to looking at these contracts and it is they who adjudge value for money and taxpayer expenditure whether such money was wisely spent etc. Any future independent inquiry should also have this in its remit but you can be sure that if the Tories agree to one they'll fight tooth and nail to try to keep this away from an inquiry. 

I don't currently deal with these issues directly but my former occupation involved quite a bit of procurement of niche equipment which was subject to these directives.

 

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Just now, Copperface said:

It is shady, but it's allowed. The fly in the ointment will eventually be the National Audit Office when they eventually get around their backlog to looking at these contracts and it is they who adjudge value for money and taxpayer expenditure whether such money was wisely spent etc. Any future independent inquiry should also have this in its remit but you can be sure that if the Tories agree to one they'll fight tooth and nail to try to keep this away from an inquiry. 

I don't currently deal with these issues directly but my former occupation involved quite a bit of procurement of niche equipment which was subject to these directives.

 

By the time an enquiry comes along those involved will be sat in a tax haven spending that cash that can’t be recovered. 

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40 minutes ago, Copperface said:

Yep, was just the UK joining the WTO GPA in the event of no deal where the UK would not be covered by the EU GPA (Govt Procurement Agreement). Not sure that much will change, Accountability still needed.

Thanks! I guess my query is similar to @SheffJeff above in terms of multi-million pound contracts for companies (often brand new ones) with no track record in procuring what is actually required (our own government here in Ireland are fond of this too...Companies just set up by [REDACTED]* always seem to get these contracts and we waste millions more in tribunals investigating what went on, yet nothing ever happens). I’m entirely naive in this area though, so not sure how things are supposed to work!

 

* notoriously litigious and trawls online message boards for reference to him or his companies, anyone from Ireland knows who I mean!

 

edit: ah, you answered while I was typing! Thanks!

Edited by Toilet Duck
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24 minutes ago, Copperface said:

It is shady, but it's allowed. The fly in the ointment will eventually be the National Audit Office when they eventually get around their backlog to looking at these contracts and it is they who adjudge value for money and taxpayer expenditure whether such money was wisely spent etc. Any future independent inquiry should also have this in its remit but you can be sure that if the Tories agree to one they'll fight tooth and nail to try to keep this away from an inquiry. 

I don't currently deal with these issues directly but my former occupation involved quite a bit of procurement of niche equipment which was subject to these directives.

 

Thanks for the explanation, it makes me feel slightly better that there is some form of audit office to hold the government accountable though it does worry me that the Tories may have to agree to any enquiry being held because, well why would they.  I had always assumed our political structure was fundamentally different to how it is in the states where backhanders are standard but maybe I've been naive and this is how it's always been.  I've just not been paying attention as I was living a life rather than existing reading about science that's beyond me and politics that annoy me.  In fact fuck it, soup anyone?

I know Carling is shite but you get the gist.

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2 hours ago, Ryan1984 said:

Do you still think we’ll be on the Farm next year?

I’m not hopeful... Maybe there’s a chance of smaller festivals or the late summer ones going ahead?

The prof who advises the Scottish Government was asked if he could see full stadiums by June next year. He said he sadly wouldn’t bet on it 😞 

This was football but he went on to talk about large groups traveling on public transport and queuing to get in and out of venues. 

Also large groups traveling from all over the place into one location and then dispersing all over the country.

With all the sacrifices being made it worries me that music festivals might not happen next year.

Apols for the negative vibes here. 

Anywayz, got me thinking that festivals that reduce numbers and allow more space with lower capacity might have a better chance but that won’t be an option for Glastonbury with so many tickets rolling over.

As things stand I think it’s off and tickets get refunded. 

The good news is my predictions are usually shit 😀

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5 hours ago, DareToDibble said:

That definitely hasn’t always been the rules. You’ve been able to mix households in pubs and restaurants, just not in groups over 6.

There are undoubtedly pubs that will have taken the mick but the huge majority have been very safe in their enforcing of social distancing.

While maintaining 2m distance from people not in your household still though. Not sure many pubs listened to that bit. 

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4 hours ago, RobertProsineckisLighter said:

No your wrong. I could have a table with 2 other friends from different house holds quite legitimately until we have now entered tier 2.

Yes, if you could be seated such that you were 2m from each person not in your household, and they were too. To do that required very big tables that most pubs don't have. To do that with three households requires massive tables.

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3 hours ago, Fuzzy Afro said:

Been doing some maths on rule of 6 vs rule of 12 at Christmas. @Ozanne particularly interested to get your thoughts

 

Let’s assume we get to Christmas week with roughly the same virus prevalence as now. 1 in 180 people in the UK. 
 

If people gather in groups of 6, there would be around 11m gatherings. In groups of 12, there would be 5.5m. This is very fag packet as many will choose to meet in different sized groups, but just wanted to prove a point. 
 

Doesn't tell the whole story though. Christmas isn't like the rest of the year, the way people move around and interact is entirely different. We're seeing such a focus on it because for many it's the only time they see family all year. 

The real problem with Christmas isn't the size of individual gatherings. It's people travelling so far to those gatherings, then travelling to other gatherings with other families the next day, then going home and a few days later going out (or staying in) for a big party with friends for New Year. It's all those gatherings together, with people who aren't regular social contacts already, and that's so geographically disparate compared to normal patterns.

(But also on the plus side: no schools, no university, many people off work many businesses closed)

Christmas needs an entirely different model. It's work I really hope is being done already.

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13 minutes ago, DeanoL said:

Yes, if you could be seated such that you were 2m from each person not in your household, and they were too. To do that required very big tables that most pubs don't have. To do that with three households requires massive tables.

Again not true, there was all the one metre plus stuff where two metres isn't possible and things like sit next to each other or diagonally etc.. etc.. 

Pubs and restaurants aren't any less safe than dozens of other places if the venue and the patrons are sensible which in my experience most are. 

Only being able to have any sort of social interaction with the two people you live with isn't social interaction and it isn't living - it's terribly bad for all of us, people need their own space people need to interact with others. 

It's incredibly bad for our boy, not seeing his friends not seeing his grandparents his aunties or just other people in general friends of ours. All of those interacts and influences make the future him - and do you know what's also pretty shit for him? Having parents that can't have any downtime or other social interactions. 

Humans aren't wired to be living like this. So while to you it might be about a distance in a pub or the fact that someone wants to get shit faced in the pub for many others it's far more than that - it's where the go to decompress, chew the fat with their mates, take their son or daughter, meet their parents whatever of course we could go to our local park in the pissing rain and that's gates are locked at dusk.... Or drive several hours to sit in out in our respective families gardens...because yep... That's right we can't stay over either.

Don't get me wrong there are people far far worse off - but it's not just about going for a pint or a meal out it's a out having a fucking purpose and an escape from the rinse and repeat of life since March. It's been dog shit since March, it's been bearable because of the sun earlier in the year it's been better being able to have some interaction and you know what it's really pretty shit when it's grey and miserable outside before you factor in the weather and this is here for the foreseeable... It's actually pretty soul destroying as there is literally nothing on the horizon to look forward to. There isn't even anything to look forward to about Xmas, because yep you guessed it... Same as every other day - same 4 walls, same people. 

 

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