When will this shit end?

[hodgey123]

4 minutes ago, Ozanne said:

I thought that might be the case! I'm sure you're not the only one that has seen their productivity improve as well. Not just for the reasons you say but also because they are happier and in a more comfortable environment.

Yeah, our team’s productivity is measured monthly and it’s up year on year. We will see what they announce in May. A competitor (PwC) announced quite a flexible hybrid model but it still sounded as if there was a minimum 2 days a week office presence required, which wouldn’t work for me. 

[RobertProsineckisLighter]

Just now, hodgey123 said:

Yeah I’m assuming I’d lose this weighting and go down to the regional bands. We had members in our team that relocated to different offices who are then on different bands which I can understand but equally do not agree with at all as it’s the same job in the same team! 

Nope - I agree with you. We have about 30 staff doing the same job as me. About 20 of them are based in Southampton. The other 10 of is are dotted about the rest of GB. We are all in the same pay banding same work. 

My salary goes further up here - that being said if I was expected to work from HQ I'd not have moved company for the salary I'm on now.

The other perk of being home based is i'm on the clock the second I leave the front door office based is over and above their usual commute. Also due to a poorly written expenses policy I can claim expenses when I'm a certain travel time from the office not from my place of work -although obviously this isn't done because it would be questioned and it's just not the right thing to do! 

 

 

[Crazyfool01]

Might mean the rise of some smaller localised pubs rather than some of the chains that now dominate and close all the completion nearby 

[onthebeach]

33 minutes ago, zahidf said:

But you don't have to pause it. You can use it with a warning.

Reasons to pause ....

[onthebeach]

23 minutes ago, RobertProsineckisLighter said:

Thats the attraction with the shoeboxes thrown up in the 00's in many of the big cities already, along with jobs. 

I’m thinking of a more well thought out future plan than that though - not throwing up shoe boxes but converting existing office/retail space no longer required into decent living spaces that could be truly affordable to buy not just rent. I know it’s all pie in the sky but it’s late, I’ve had a few bourbons as I’ve finally escaped to deepest, darkest Norfolk in the campervan now it’s allowed!

[RobertProsineckisLighter]

2 minutes ago, onthebeach said:

I’m thinking of a more well thought out future plan than that though - not throwing up shoe boxes but converting existing office/retail space no longer required into decent living spaces that could be truly affordable to buy not just rent. I know it’s all pie in the sky but it’s late, I’ve had a few bourbons as I’ve finally escaped to deepest, darkest Norfolk in the campervan now it’s allowed!

I don't disagree.

The most successful developments tend to be the mixed use ones there still needs to be some employment and transition between daytime economy and night time economy that's the tricky part! 

[zahidf]

 

[BobWillis2]

3 minutes ago, Barry Fish said:

If you get a London premium and no longer commute into or live in London then of course salaries are going to be altered.

 This is actually going to be one of the big shifts we see.  Very London centric companies have been forced to operate in different ways lately and are now seeing the light in why was they engaging someone on x amount when they could just simply engage someone further north on x amount - 30%...  and then to take a step further - why engage someone in expensive you UK when you can engage someone in Romanian at a fraction of the cost.

Its isn't a binary thing but a lot of companies are going to change.  WFH will be more common, engaging new employers will be more of a national shopping window.  The concept everyone and everything changes though was never going to be the case.  Some professionals work well remotely and others work less well.

What I will say though is the companies who operate bums on seats policy with a reluctant workforce who could be remote will lose their brightest and best to a rival who is offering it.  

In my industry office working is now all but dead - now and in the future.  90% of job adverts at worse say meeting in the office about 1 every two weeks other than remote.  Still get someone saying back to the office after the pandemic but I know they aren't getting the CVs 🙂 

It will also accelerate the process of certain office jobs being replaced by robots/computer systems. 
If they don’t even need you in the office any more, they’ll soon realise they don’t actually need you at all once the systems are in place. For many industries these systems were already being developed before the pandemic. 

[Fuzzy Afro]

5 minutes ago, Barry Fish said:

If you get a London premium and no longer commute into or live in London then of course salaries are going to be altered.

 This is actually going to be one of the big shifts we see.  Very London centric companies have been forced to operate in different ways lately and are now seeing the light in why was they engaging someone on x amount when they could just simply engage someone further north on x amount - 30%...  and then to take a step further - why engage someone in expensive you UK when you can engage someone in Romanian at a fraction of the cost.

Its isn't a binary thing but a lot of companies are going to change.  WFH will be more common, engaging new employers will be more of a national shopping window.  The concept everyone and everything changes though was never going to be the case.  Some professionals work well remotely and others work less well.

What I will say though is the companies who operate bums on seats policy with a reluctant workforce who could be remote will lose their brightest and best to a rival who is offering it.  

In my industry office working is now all but dead - now and in the future.  90% of job adverts at worse say meeting in the office about 1 every two weeks other than remote.  Still get someone saying back to the office after the pandemic but I know they aren't getting the CVs 🙂 

 

No, no.

 

Plenty of jobs were already outsourced to India and Eastern Europe and there’s a reason why that’s largely remained limited to things like call centres and remote IT support. Basically all those jobs are is following a set process that someone has documented, outsourcing it to minimum wage employees in those markets is one step short of literally automating it.

 

Most London office jobs are highly skilled and require the ability to think critically. There simply aren’t the brains for these jobs to be done cheaply in overseas markets. That’s absolutely not the same as outsourcing your remote IT support to a company in India. 

[fraybentos1]

49 minutes ago, RobertProsineckisLighter said:

This arguement of distractions is always my favourite in this discussion - it's not like there are no distractions at home.

People saying they’re more productive from home while posting dozens of times a day in this thread 🤔

[RobertProsineckisLighter]

8 minutes ago, Fuzzy Afro said:

 

No, no.

 

Plenty of jobs were already outsourced to India and Eastern Europe and there’s a reason why that’s largely remained limited to things like call centres and remote IT support. Basically all those jobs are is following a set process that someone has documented, outsourcing it to minimum wage employees in those markets is one step short of literally automating it.

 

Most London office jobs are highly skilled and require the ability to think critically. There simply aren’t the brains for these jobs to be done cheaply in overseas markets. That’s absolutely not the same as outsourcing your remote IT support to a company in India. 

That's not strictly true. There is lots of offshore IT development (skilled jobs). 3/4 of my companies remote sensing (skilled jobs) is done in India and Romania. Lots of post processing of aerial imagery is done overseas too. For fractions of the cost.

[Toilet Duck]

16 minutes ago, zahidf said:

 

Judging by many of your posts, you’re not stupid. So surely you realise that since this is not the only vaccine available, it’s entirely possible to save all these lives and not lose others by choosing the correct vaccine for the right patients. Telling the families of 22 people that they are collateral damage cos we’re in a hurry to get back to normal isn’t ok in my book. I get that we’re all sick of this, I am and I’ve had it pretty easy, but let’s do this right.

[RobertProsineckisLighter]

5 minutes ago, Barry Fish said:

Well you said no, no to a lot of what is actually a fact.

Many London centric businesses are now engaging perm and freelance staff much further a field.  Where they would only take on contractors in and around London they are now engage northern base staff on much lower rates.  A software developer can set you back £800 to £1000 a day around London - up north its £300 to £500.  And with companies now having learnt how to work remotely much better they don't see this as the same problem they did 12+ months ago.

Your point on overseas is more relevant and more grey.  But one of the issues with engaging overseas staff wasn't always the quality etc overseas - it was the inability of the UK company to engage remote workers - this is something they have now got much better at.  The fear has gone - their remote management and engagement skills are better.

I am close to a lot of London software houses who I know for a fact are now expanding their recruitment drives more North and more overseas.  And these are houses that 100% had no interest in recruiting outside of London pre pandemic.

Its happening in other sectors as well.  The London bubble is popping for freelancers - Northern contractors are seeing a boom.  Its happening with perm roles as well.

The civil service is becoming a lot less Whitehall centric too.

[zahidf]

2 minutes ago, Toilet Duck said:

Judging by many of your posts, you’re not stupid. So surely you realise that since this is not the only vaccine available, it’s entirely possible to save all these lives and not lose others by choosing the correct vaccine for the right patients. Telling the families of 22 people that they are collateral damage cos we’re in a hurry to get back to normal isn’t ok in my book. I get that we’re all sick of this, I am and I’ve had it pretty easy, but let’s do this right.

But for a lot of places IT IS the only vaccine available. Either through cost or the difficulties in storage of the other vaccines.

I'm not saying it should be swept under the carpet. But I don't think it should be paused in the way they are doing it because it is feuling vaccine hesitancy. I personally think its better to keep the roll out going and telling people as the rare side effects. The risks of catching Covid are still higher than the risks from the clots

[RobertProsineckisLighter]

4 minutes ago, Barry Fish said:

Yup -  a lot of gov contracts and perm roles now WFH / work from anywhere.  I noticed a few on linkedin recently.  Good rates as well and often outside IR35 FTW 😄 

Yep - central government tends to be the super huge consultantcy firms of this world or contractors! 

[Toilet Duck]

1 minute ago, zahidf said:

But for a lot of places IT IS the only vaccine available. Either through cost or the difficulties in storage of the other vaccines.

I'm not saying it should be swept under the carpet. But I don't think it should be paused in the way they are doing it because it is feuling vaccine hesitancy. I personally think its better to keep the roll out going and telling people as the rare side effects. The risks of catching Covid are still higher than the risks from the clots

In under 30s though the risks of clotting are higher than the risks of catching covid and developing severe enough disease that you end up in critical care and that’s the key point in choosing to restrict use in certain groups (though long Covid is an unknown here). Eventually, they will keep using it, but it’s extremely important that everyone administering it can inform patients of what to watch out for and equally important to make sure all medical professionals have clear guidance on how to treat it if one of their patients shows up with it (especially as standard heparin-based anticoagulants could make it worse). But that takes some time to sort out. In the meantime, use can be limited to groups where there is a lower risk of this happening. As it happens, based on risk, I agree with the JCVI restriction on use in under 30s, I think some other places are being over cautious, but in many of those places, they are looking at a 4 fold difference in the amount of Pfizer they have vs AZ and it’s not that challenging a decision to say, let’s just use this in the cohort that haven’t experienced these side effects and use the others for those at higher risk of clotting events. But I think it’s correct that it’s transparent and patients make informed choices. As it happens, in Ireland they are looking at allowing younger people consent to receiving AZ (and we’ll use J&J if it ever arrives!). Rationally, it should reinforce confidence in our medicines regulators, but many of the reactions to it aren’t rational at all. There’s definitely a communication piece that needs to be perfected, as I do understand that outside of rich countries (where the logistics of using Pfizer or Moderna are more complicated, but not insurmountable), easier distribution of AZ, J&J and others is crucial to their successful deployment. 

[zahidf]

6 hours ago, Toilet Duck said:

In under 30s though the risks of clotting are higher than the risks of catching covid and developing severe enough disease that you end up in critical care and that’s the key point in choosing to restrict use in certain groups (though long Covid is an unknown here). Eventually, they will keep using it, but it’s extremely important that everyone administering it can inform patients of what to watch out for and equally important to make sure all medical professionals have clear guidance on how to treat it if one of their patients shows up with it (especially as standard heparin-based anticoagulants could make it worse). But that takes some time to sort out. In the meantime, use can be limited to groups where there is a lower risk of this happening. As it happens, based on risk, I agree with the JCVI restriction on use in under 30s, I think some other places are being over cautious, but in many of those places, they are looking at a 4 fold difference in the amount of Pfizer they have vs AZ and it’s not that challenging a decision to say, let’s just use this in the cohort that haven’t experienced these side effects and use the others for those at higher risk of clotting events. But I think it’s correct that it’s transparent and patients make informed choices. As it happens, in Ireland they are looking at allowing younger people consent to receiving AZ (and we’ll use J&J if it ever arrives!). Rationally, it should reinforce confidence in our medicines regulators, but many of the reactions to it aren’t rational at all. There’s definitely a communication piece that needs to be perfected, as I do understand that outside of rich countries (where the logistics of using Pfizer or Moderna are more complicated, but not insurmountable), easier distribution of AZ, J&J and others is crucial to their successful deployment. 

I was impressed with how diligently we set out the risks clearly in terms of under 30s. I dont have a massive issue with the UK position on this since we have other vaccines and the incidence of the virus is low at the moment. If that position was different, I'd feel differently.

It's more other countries not using it for under 60s or Denmark not using it at all which seems unduly risky. Or the US suspending it indefinitely for J and J. 

There is a new study mentioned here which does say the risks of clotting with Covid are worse for under 30s if they don't have the vaccine 

 

 

[Fuzzy Afro]

8 hours ago, Barry Fish said:

I am forming a new business in June - I mentioned a meeting I had the other night 🙂 .  The core business team will be UK based (no office) fully remote.  We are going to have remote technical teams in India, Romania and the USA as well as other business functions in the USA for strategic reasons.

The technical teams in India and Romania cost nothing compared to the UK and the quality is good.  A lot of the scare stories are mainly by people with something to lose in the UK.  But we would be mad to use UK based staff at on average four times the cost with a same level of competence.  The only challenge is time zones but thats easily managed.  Even the USA based staff come in cheaper than UK bods.

People of the UK are going to need to get use to competing for work more on a global scale.  I am convinced by this - specially post Brexit.

For most jobs that are done in the city of London there simply aren’t the brains to outsource them to the places you mention. 

[Ozanne]

Matt Hancock and sister own shares in NHS contract firm https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-56768601

[steviewevie]

12 minutes ago, Ozanne said:

Matt Hancock and sister own shares in NHS contract firm https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-56768601

dodgy fuckers.

[mcshed]

7 minutes ago, Barry Fish said:

NHS Wales has nothing to with Hanncock so I am struggling to see the outrage 

The only reason they could get the NHS Wales contract was because they were added to the list of approved NHS suppliers, they were added to the list after Hancock became Health secretary, when declaring an interest in the company Hancock declined to mention his sister's involvement.

It isn't as dodgy as if they were getting NHS England money but it's still dodgy and it's just more and more of the sleaze that is the dominant non-Covid news at the moment.

[RobertProsineckisLighter]

15 minutes ago, mcshed said:

The only reason they could get the NHS Wales contract was because they were added to the list of approved NHS suppliers, they were added to the list after Hancock became Health secretary, when declaring an interest in the company Hancock declined to mention his sister's involvement.

It isn't as dodgy as if they were getting NHS England money but it's still dodgy and it's just more and more of the sleaze that is the dominant non-Covid news at the moment.

What needs to be established with all these sorts of things was did Hancock (and all the others) put pressure on the civil / crown / public servants who's job it is to do this.

Would the interest being declared have changed the outcome or changed the outcome of the process. 

It's dodgy, and dishonest and shows a disregard for the processes put in place. You only with hold information on declaration of interest if you think it's going to negatively impact you so just shows these twats to be the self serving w*nkers they are. 

Edited April 16, 2021 by RobertProsineckisLighter

[Ozanne]

24 minutes ago, mcshed said:

The only reason they could get the NHS Wales contract was because they were added to the list of approved NHS suppliers, they were added to the list after Hancock became Health secretary, when declaring an interest in the company Hancock declined to mention his sister's involvement.

It isn't as dodgy as if they were getting NHS England money but it's still dodgy and it's just more and more of the sleaze that is the dominant non-Covid news at the moment.

It’s just more evidence as you say if the sleaze in this government currently. This doesn’t look good from an optics perspective alone especially with contracts being given to mates of Ministers. 

[Havors]

9 hours ago, Barry Fish said:

Well you said no, no to a lot of what is actually a fact.

Many London centric businesses are now engaging perm and freelance staff much further a field.  Where they would only take on contractors in and around London they are now engage northern base staff on much lower rates.  A software developer can set you back £800 to £1000 a day around London - up north its £300 to £500.  And with companies now having learnt how to work remotely much better they don't see this as the same problem they did 12+ months ago.

Your point on overseas is more relevant and more grey.  But one of the issues with engaging overseas staff wasn't always the quality etc overseas - it was the inability of the UK company to engage remote workers - this is something they have now got much better at.  The fear has gone - their remote management and engagement skills are better.

I am close to a lot of London software houses who I know for a fact are now expanding their recruitment drives more North and more overseas.  And these are houses that 100% had no interest in recruiting outside of London pre pandemic.

Its happening in other sectors as well.  The London bubble is popping for freelancers - Northern contractors are seeing a boom.  Its happening with perm roles as well.

Agree about the overseas. But contract work as a whole is dying a death... Where you used to be able to set yourself up as ltd company and pay yourself a wage and avoid paying a lot of income tax the government have closed that path now and companies must now use a government agency middle man and they take their wack of tax leaving contractors massively out of pocket. To the point companies and contractors are going down the permanent contract route. Lloyds have just took a large number of contractors on as permanent staff for just such reasons. 

This is leading to an increase in going abroad in some cases. 

As for overseas workers my old company outsources half a department (Software QA) to India and they were not bad once things got up and running and everything was ironed out. I have also worked with quite a few Indian colleges and they were technically a lot more savy than some of our UK workers. Outsourcing doesnt just mean answering phones with a script. 

[Havors]

32 minutes ago, Ozanne said:

It’s just more evidence as you say if the sleaze in this government currently. This doesn’t look good from an optics perspective alone especially with contracts being given to mates of Ministers. 

A large portion of the voting public have already been shown to not give the slightest fuck if they are being mugged off and taken for a ride though.

So perception/optics appears to becoming more and more irrelevant, this Tory government could literally get away with murder and still be ahead in the polls.