When will this shit end?

[Mr.Tease]

1 hour ago, steviewevie said:

Fuckin come on!

 

What a tosser!

I was/still would be anti-Brexit, but I never deluded myself what some politicians in the EU can be like- we've seen it by the way they shaft poorer countries, happily overlooked the Spanish governments violence vs Basque separatists, and the way they treated Greece etc

[zahidf]

1 minute ago, Copperface said:

Ooh this is interesting and might explain some of the tensions and to me at least looks like something is amiss and there has been some creative accounting.

Ministers have referred to “securing” 100 million doses of the Oxford vaccine – meaning that they have pre-ordered it in the hope that it will prove to be safe and effective in trials (the government has also hedged its bets by placing large orders with other vaccine developers).

The UK government is currently briefing journalists that if the Oxford vaccine is successful, the licensing agreement signed by the university and AstraZeneca back in May will deliver 100 million doses in total “for the UK”.

This sounds impressive: it would mean more than one dose for every one of the UK’s 67 million citizens – although we don’t know if multiple doses will be needed to provide enough immunity, as is the case with many vaccines.

But when the agreement was announced in May, it was made clear that not all of the 100 million doses were actually earmarked for people in Britain.

A government press release said: “If the Oxford vaccine is successful, AstraZeneca will work to make up to 30 million doses available by September for people in the UK, as part of an agreement to deliver 100 million doses in total.”

The Business Secretary Alok Sharma said: “The agreement will deliver 100 million doses in total, ensuring that in addition to supporting our own people, we are able to make the vaccines available to developing countries at the lowest possible cost.”

The fact that the 100 million vaccine doses are apparently not all destined to stay in Britain has only been rarely acknowledged since then.

The next detailed reference to it that we can find is in this August 18 letter from Professor Jonathan Van-Tam, the deputy chief medical officer, to Jeremy Hunt, who chairs the Health and Social Care Select Committee.

By August, it looked like the target had slipped from 30 million doses for UK use to 15 million:

https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-confusion-over-covid-19-vaccine-plans

Creative? AZ said they are having some productions issues (same as Pfizer are for a bit). The interview with the CEO goes into it on some detail

[Copperface]

Just now, zahidf said:

Creative? AZ said they are having some productions issues (same as Pfizer are for a bit). The interview with the CEO goes into it on some detail

You either didn't read the above, or failed to understand the implications of what is laid out there.

[Mr.Tease]

3 hours ago, zahidf said:

This is a similar take

 

 

 

So if say the US start asking for more of the vaccine from European supplies in the same way, the EU would be ok with it?

 

i think the EU need to take a step back

 

Yep, and if some African countries managed to actually get some vaccine commitments next month, I'm sure the EU would be cool with the 'there's no such thing as first come first served', and would happily share their supply if there was a production shortfall...

 

Wish we'd just open source the vaccines, as was originally planned with the Oxford one- enough of this squabbling in the gutter, do a proper, international cooperative effort that sets up and expands production globally so poorer countries can get much better access.

[zahidf]

2 minutes ago, Copperface said:

You either didn't read the above, or failed to understand the implications of what is laid out there.

I did... he said when the contract was signed there were issues setting up the UK site to manufacture the vaccines which took a few months to resolve. I assume that's the reason for the change.

[xxialac]

6 minutes ago, zahidf said:

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/how-the-eu-vaccine-row-could-escalate/amp?__twitter_impression=true

 

uk has first refusal on AZ vaccines made in the UK

 

Is that any different to saying this article 'evidence' that Oxford jab is only 8% reliable.

https://www.handelsblatt.com/politik/deutschland/pandemiebekaempfung-kontroverse-um-impfstoff-von-astra-zeneca/26854288.html

I still don't see any evidence

It will all come out. Best to wait and see I think.

[Mr.Tease]

24 minutes ago, Gingerfish79 said:

This is worrying. If they can’t make meaningful gains after the past 6 months, they never will.

They have next to no policies, certainly no economic ones, rarely take a stand on anything (unless they know it's about to happen, then the day before it they call for it- I don't get why they do this, it's just sad!), and have next to no charisma. If you're going to be vapid you have to at least be charismatic! I'm still a member, but they really make it hard- felt like they've spent more time and effort trying to get rid of me than they have going after the Tories or even building up some sort of effective electioneering machinery or strategy.

[Toilet Duck]

12 minutes ago, zahidf said:

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/how-the-eu-vaccine-row-could-escalate/amp?__twitter_impression=true

 

uk has first refusal on AZ vaccines made in the UK

 

Other stuff on price is speculation 

Also what the AZ CEO said in his interview last night 

 

https://www.repubblica.it/cronaca/2021/01/26/news/interview_pascal_soriot_ceo_astrazeneca_coronavirus_covid_vaccines-284349628/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

I think part of the tension is also because doses of the AZ jab that we’re made in Germany and the Netherlands have been used in the UK as part of the initial roll out as it wasn’t approved in the EU yet and no point leaving them sitting there (possibly why there was consternation at the Scottish leak of scheduled deliveries, open to correction on that, but pretty sure I saw somewhere that EU made doses were shipped to the UK early on)...

[Smeble]

10 hours ago, xxialac said:

Yeah, reading back that now seems insensitive. Meant in a limited way in terms of freedoms for young people in terms of freedoms.

For deaths and hospitalisations it will clearly be a far, far better year.

Big question mark on mental health and the economy. 

Things are getting worse not better, deaths has doubled since November, what in all that’s holy makes you think it will be a better year?

[JoeyT]

5 minutes ago, Toilet Duck said:

I think part of the tension is also because doses of the AZ jab that we’re made in Germany and the Netherlands have been used in the UK as part of the initial roll out as it wasn’t approved in the EU yet and no point leaving them sitting there (possibly why there was consternation at the Scottish leak of scheduled deliveries, open to correction on that, but pretty sure I saw somewhere that EU made doses were shipped to the UK early on)...

How do you see this playing out?

Surely the EU won’t block the Pfizer vaccinations being exported?

[zahidf]

10 minutes ago, JoeyT said:

How do you see this playing out?

Surely the EU won’t block the Pfizer vaccinations being exported?

Its bad enough the EU involving the UK in their spat with AZ: Surely involving Pfizer and potentially even the US would be too much wouldn't it?

 

Also I think some of the Pfizer supply chain is from the UK. Not sure if the EU will want us to retaliate...

Edited January 27, 2021 by zahidf

[xxialac]

For deaths and hospitalisations it will clearly be a far, far better year.
 

1 minute ago, Smeble said:

Things are getting worse not better, deaths has doubled since November, what in all that’s holy makes you think it will be a better year?

Seriously?

Because there's still over 11 months of the year left, and cases are now starting to dropping, most of our extremely vulnerable people are now vaccinated and pretty much the whole at-risk-of-hospitalisation population will have been vaccinated by the Summer?

 

 

 

[stuartbert two hats]

10 minutes ago, Smeble said:

Things are getting worse not better, deaths has doubled since November, what in all that’s holy makes you think it will be a better year?

Vaccines innit.

[xxialac]

Here is the crux of the EU argument against AZ (Health Commissioner's comments as reported in the Guardian).

Until we know more, you cannot simply assume the EU are in the wrong.

The EU’s health commissioner outright dismissed on Wednesday an argument made by Pascal Soriot, the Anglo-Swedish company’s chief executive, that he was contractually obliged to supply the UK first.

In a withering statement, Stella Kyriakides said the UK should not earn any advantage from signing a contract with AstraZeneca three months before the EU’s executive branch put pen to paper. “We reject the logic of first come, first served,” the commissioner said. “That may work in a butcher’s shop but not in contracts and not in our advanced purchase agreements.”

Kyriakides said that under its contract with AstraZeneca, four European plants were named as suppliers and two of those were based in the UK, and she expected them to work for EU citizens.

Kyriakides, a Cypriot who studied in Britain, said the argument was unacceptable and the company had a moral duty to treat the EU similarly to the UK. “Pharmaceutical companies, vaccine developers have moral, societal and contractual responsibilities, which they need to uphold. The view that the company is not obliged to deliver because we signed a best effort agreement is neither correct, nor is it acceptable.”

Kyriakides said there was no “priority clause” that would justify British residents benefiting first from doses made in the UK.

 

 

 

Edited January 27, 2021 by xxialac

[fraybentos1]

13 minutes ago, Smeble said:

Things are getting worse not better, deaths has doubled since November, what in all that’s holy makes you think it will be a better year?

There's some vaccines kicking about, not sure if you've heard...

[Toilet Duck]

14 minutes ago, JoeyT said:

How do you see this playing out?

Surely the EU won’t block the Pfizer vaccinations being exported?

I doubt it, they’ll come up with something!

[fraybentos1]

2 minutes ago, xxialac said:

Kyriakides said there was no “priority clause” that would justify British residents benefiting first from doses made in the UK.

 

How does he know? 

Seems like the EU have lost the plot a bit. They also STILL haven't even approved the thing for use. 

[zahidf]

4 minutes ago, xxialac said:

Here is the crux of the EU argument against AZ (Health Commissioner's comments as reported in the Guardian).

Until we know more, you cannot simply assume the EU are in the wrong.

The EU’s health commissioner outright dismissed on Wednesday an argument made by Pascal Soriot, the Anglo-Swedish company’s chief executive, that he was contractually obliged to supply the UK first.

In a withering statement, Stella Kyriakides said the UK should not earn any advantage from signing a contract with AstraZeneca three months before the EU’s executive branch put pen to paper. “We reject the logic of first come, first served,” the commissioner said. “That may work in a butcher’s shop but not in contracts and not in our advanced purchase agreements.”

Kyriakides said that under its contract with AstraZeneca, four European plants were named as suppliers and two of those were based in the UK, and she expected them to work for EU citizens.

Kyriakides, a Cypriot who studied in Britain, said the argument was unacceptable and the company had a moral duty to treat the EU similarly to the UK. “Pharmaceutical companies, vaccine developers have moral, societal and contractual responsibilities, which they need to uphold. The view that the company is not obliged to deliver because we signed a best effort agreement is neither correct, nor is it acceptable.”

Kyriakides said there was no “priority clause” that would justify British residents benefiting first from doses made in the UK.

 

 

 

There isn't one in the EU contract but there could be one in the UK contract. Why would there be one in the EU contract about another countries contract?

If they want to sue AZ they can go ahead. Specific threats on banning vaccine exports to us is clearly an unfair escalation though.

Edited January 27, 2021 by zahidf

[Gingerfish79]

17 minutes ago, Mr.Tease said:

They have next to no policies, certainly no economic ones, rarely take a stand on anything (unless they know it's about to happen, then the day before it they call for it- I don't get why they do this, it's just sad!), and have next to no charisma. If you're going to be vapid you have to at least be charismatic! I'm still a member, but they really make it hard- felt like they've spent more time and effort trying to get rid of me than they have going after the Tories or even building up some sort of effective electioneering machinery or strategy.

Completely agree. No matter what excuses people make for them, to have made no material progress in the last 6 months is pathetic. I resigned my membership last November when it became abundantly clear that Starmer had no intention of sticking to his 10 election pledges. 

[steviewevie]

35 minutes ago, zahidf said:

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/how-the-eu-vaccine-row-could-escalate/amp?__twitter_impression=true

 

uk has first refusal on AZ vaccines made in the UK

 

Other stuff on price is speculation 

Also what the AZ CEO said in his interview last night 

 

https://www.repubblica.it/cronaca/2021/01/26/news/interview_pascal_soriot_ceo_astrazeneca_coronavirus_covid_vaccines-284349628/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

Spectator = devils spawn

[Mr.Tease]

2 minutes ago, Toilet Duck said:

I doubt it, they’ll come up with something!

Would it be possible for us all to start cooking up batches of the vaccines in our living rooms, like in Breaking Bad?

[steviewevie]

28 minutes ago, Mr.Tease said:

Yep, and if some African countries managed to actually get some vaccine commitments next month, I'm sure the EU would be cool with the 'there's no such thing as first come first served', and would happily share their supply if there was a production shortfall...

 

Wish we'd just open source the vaccines, as was originally planned with the Oxford one- enough of this squabbling in the gutter, do a proper, international cooperative effort that sets up and expands production globally so poorer countries can get much better access.

NOT LISTENING. EU ARE AWESOME!

[efcfanwirral]

24 minutes ago, Mr.Tease said:

They have next to no policies, certainly no economic ones, rarely take a stand on anything (unless they know it's about to happen, then the day before it they call for it- I don't get why they do this, it's just sad!), and have next to no charisma. If you're going to be vapid you have to at least be charismatic! I'm still a member, but they really make it hard- felt like they've spent more time and effort trying to get rid of me than they have going after the Tories or even building up some sort of effective electioneering machinery or strategy.

Considering there is no election for a while and nobody knows what mess the economy will be in by then it's probably fair enough- why make  promises when the world could look very different by then - the economy could literally collapse the way things are going.

Still prefer them to the last Labour leadership but still don't trust them. That said, I could waste my vote on the greens or something or actually vote to get the tories out

[zahidf]

For people saying the UK should do more to get vaccines to poorer countries...

"As of 13th January the UK had donated £548 million to the COVAX project. More, as it happens, than the whole of the rest of the EU combined. We did this, in part, by making a pledge to match £1 for every £4 donated by other countries whilst donating almost £300 million in addition outside of that pledge."

[Toilet Duck]

1 minute ago, zahidf said:

There isn't one in the EU contract but there could be one in the UK contract. He

If they want to sue AZ they can go ahead. Specific threats on banning vaccine exports to us is clearly an unfair escalation though.

Just as a matter of interest, would you have felt the same when Pfizer announced reduced deliveries for everyone, had they said, well, it’s a German vaccine made in Belgium, so we know you have a contract with us for a certain supply, but we’re gonna hold on to it in the EU so we can meet our order with them and only reduce deliveries to the UK until we get back up and running? 
 

Doesn’t really matter what’s in the AZ/UK contract, if the situation is as described above (2 UK sites listed as suppliers for the EU), I don’t see much of a way out for AZ (but we don’t know the specifics anyway, so it’s all speculation based on quotes in the media rather than cold hard facts).