When will this shit end?

[mattiloy]

4 minutes ago, efcfanwirral said:

ideologically anyway. Anyway I'll just get back to conforming and talking about mainstream stuff

As Quark said, trade wars are not the same as wars. The west is China’s biggest customer and China imports a lot from the west. There are many nationals from either who live and work in the other. Even if you do not have faith that China is a magnanimous power, it is not in China’s economicinterests to deny the rest of the world access to raw materials for a vaccine.

[Homer]

1 hour ago, efcfanwirral said:

It's been long rumoured to be doing that - but constant denials from people over here with the "no evidence of..." caveat. The South African health minister said it was affecting younger people worse when he announced it but our figures aren't backing that up, while anecdotal accounts from doctors and nurses are. No way of knowing really!

Out of upvotes so ta for the info!

[Toilet Duck]

16 minutes ago, mcshed said:

In the Astra Zeneca trial the control group where given a different live vaccine just so people couldn't identify whether or not they had been given the real thing in this way. I don't know the J&J protocol but I wouldn't draw too much from feeling some side effects. 

Good luck with the trail though and control or not you are helping out by volunteering.

Some of the AZ trials used the meningitis vaccine, others just used a saline placebo (they have loads of different trials and are adding them all together rather than one big one...yet another piece of complexity that had to be teased out during the authorisation!). J&J trial in the UK uses a saline placebo. That said, even in trials with saline placebos, the adverse events are mostly self reported and you still see some people reporting severe side effects (usually headache or fatigue), which is part of the difficulty assessing the validity of solicited side effects  and whether or not they are due to the vaccine (some people in placebo groups even report severe pain, but one person's severe pain is mild or moderate to someone else...I've a mate who is an anaesthesiologist who specialises in pain management, he said he has loads of charts and scales to measure pain, but really asking someone if it keeps them awake is about as accurate a measure as he needs). Anyway, there's a 50:50 chance he got the vaccine since they are running a 1:1 trial (whether now that we have authorised vaccines we should be running trials with placebo at all (or at least be reducing the placebo group) is another matter...It does pose a new ethical dilemma, but I guess since we don't have an unlimited supply of the authorised ones, we still need to and we aren't looking for the best one, just as many as we can find that work!). 

[Chawk]

With the reports of those in vaccine development being targeted by cyber attacks, rival governments to the EU and USA (i.e Russia and China) have definitely examined how they can gain an advantage by stealing information or disrupting supply. But actually obtaining significant information or acting on that is less sure to have happened.

 

 

[mcshed]

7 minutes ago, Toilet Duck said:

Some of the AZ trials used the meningitis vaccine, others just used a saline placebo (they have loads of different trials and are adding them all together rather than one big one...yet another piece of complexity that had to be teased out during the authorisation!). J&J trial in the UK uses a saline placebo. That said, even in trials with saline placebos, the adverse events are mostly self reported and you still see some people reporting severe side effects (usually headache or fatigue), which is part of the difficulty assessing the validity of solicited side effects  and whether or not they are due to the vaccine (some people in placebo groups even report severe pain, but one person's severe pain is mild or moderate to someone else...I've a mate who is an anaesthesiologist who specialises in pain management, he said he has loads of charts and scales to measure pain, but really asking someone if it keeps them awake is about as accurate a measure as he needs). Anyway, there's a 50:50 chance he got the vaccine since they are running a 1:1 trial (whether now that we have authorised vaccines we should be running trials with placebo at all (or at least be reducing the placebo group) is another matter...It does pose a new ethical dilemma, but I guess since we don't have an unlimited supply of the authorised ones, we still need to and we aren't looking for the best one, just as many as we can find that work!). 

I remember Ben Goldacre giving an entertaining talk on the nocebo effect, it really is remarkable how bad your body can make you feel for no good reason. 

[steviewevie]

Another u-turn incoming...

 

[Toilet Duck]

4 minutes ago, mcshed said:

I remember Ben Goldacre giving an entertaining talk on the nocebo effect, it really is remarkable how bad your body can make you feel for no good reason. 

It's fascinating stuff! placebo delivered IV has a better effect than taken orally because our mind convinces us that an injection or a drip is a bigger intervention than just taking a pill. How it all works is a mystery. 

[efcfanwirral]

24 minutes ago, mattiloy said:

As Quark said, trade wars are not the same as wars. The west is China’s biggest customer and China imports a lot from the west. There are many nationals from either who live and work in the other. Even if you do not have faith that China is a magnanimous power, it is not in China’s economicinterests to deny the rest of the world access to raw materials for a vaccine.

Not sure you're not supposed to be debating my theories sensibly 😂 - gives them credence. Much better to shout "conspiracy theory"...

(mainly joking thanks for the explanation)

[MEGABOWL]

39 minutes ago, mattiloy said:

Hm funny, I didn’t see that declaration of war reported in any major news outlets. You would have thought it would be bigger news.

You don’t have to ‘declare war’ to be at war. It takes plenty of different forms. The longest War of the last 100 years was the Cold War.

[Ozanne]

 

[sisco]

Just now, Ozanne said:

 

Neither me or the wife were in hospital but her smell hasn’t been the same since March and my smell/taste hasn’t been since start of December.  (Also I’m getting pains in my chest when walking but it does seem to be getting better)

[DeanoL]

 

18 minutes ago, mcshed said:

I remember Ben Goldacre giving an entertaining talk on the nocebo effect, it really is remarkable how bad your body can make you feel for no good reason. 

 

[steviewevie]

 

[zahidf]

Is the sense of urgency and ramping up vaccines just a UK thing? i cant see there being as much pressure in other countries in terms of getting jabs in arms, compared to the pressure here to do it. 

[Quark]

Just now, zahidf said:

Is the sense of urgency and ramping up vaccines just a UK thing? i cant see there being as much pressure in other countries in terms of getting jabs in arms, compared to the pressure here to do it. 

I have a friend living in France who is pretty much banging his head against the wall at the slow rollout there.  It does genuinely seem to be something we're doing well.

[Ozanne]

17 minutes ago, sisco said:

Neither me or the wife were in hospital but her smell hasn’t been the same since March and my smell/taste hasn’t been since start of December.  (Also I’m getting pains in my chest when walking but it does seem to be getting better)

Hopefully they’ll be treatment that comes along soon for people like yourself with long-COVID like symptoms. Hopefully you and your wife continue to improve!

[Crazyfool01]

They seem to have stopped the daily briefings again dont they ? 

[Fuzzy Afro]

2 minutes ago, Quark said:

I have a friend living in France who is pretty much banging his head against the wall at the slow rollout there.  It does genuinely seem to be something we're doing well.

 

3 minutes ago, zahidf said:

Is the sense of urgency and ramping up vaccines just a UK thing? i cant see there being as much pressure in other countries in terms of getting jabs in arms, compared to the pressure here to do it. 

The French are slow at everything. A few years ago I attended an industry event in Marseille. The second (and final) day was supposed to be a 9-3 job but it ended up not getting started until 10:30 because the host didn’t turn up, and yet they STILL insisted on a 2 hour lunch break meaning many of the delegates missed their flights home and the only reason I didn’t is because I was staying out their for a few days holiday. 
 

Only thing more French than a slow vaccine rollout would be an even slower rollout because the vaccinators went on strike. 

[Fuzzy Afro]

2 minutes ago, crazyfool1 said:

They seem to have stopped the daily briefings again dont they ? 

Three times a week I’ve seen quoted. 

[Crazyfool01]

Just now, Fuzzy Afro said:

Three times a week I’ve seen quoted. 

mon , tue and Fri presumably then this week 

[Leyrulion]

1 hour ago, mcshed said:

In the Astra Zeneca trial the control group where given a different live vaccine just so people couldn't identify whether or not they had been given the real thing in this way. I don't know the J&J protocol but I wouldn't draw too much from feeling some side effects. 

Good luck with the trail though and control or not you are helping out by volunteering.

It's a saline placebo so unlikely to produce such a strong psychosomatic response but it's certainly possible. My temperature was up over 38 for a day. 

47 minutes ago, Toilet Duck said:

). Anyway, there's a 50:50 chance he got the vaccine since they are running a 1:1 trial (whether now that we have authorised vaccines we should be running trials with placebo at all (or at least be reducing the placebo group) is another matter...It does pose a new ethical dilemma, but I guess since we don't have an unlimited supply of the authorised ones, we still need to and we aren't looking for the best one, just as many as we can find that work!). 

One of the nurses really strongly hinted when I asked about this that should the j&j one dose get approved they'd be altering the protocol so that it would become a 1 dose Vs 2 dose study rather than 2 dose Vs placebo. However they couldn't definitely confirm until interim results are published

[northernringo]

5.5% of people in NI have had their first jab, great numbers!

[sisco]

15 minutes ago, Ozanne said:

Hopefully they’ll be treatment that comes along soon for people like yourself with long-COVID like symptoms. Hopefully you and your wife continue to improve!

Cheers mate, appreciate it

[steviewevie]

15 minutes ago, zahidf said:

Is the sense of urgency and ramping up vaccines just a UK thing? i cant see there being as much pressure in other countries in terms of getting jabs in arms, compared to the pressure here to do it. 

Did any other places see a massive increase in cases over christmas like we did? Maybe that added to the urgency...?

[Fuzzy Afro]

Extensive ban on arrivals from South America