When will this shit end?

[ace56blaa]

9 minutes ago, hodgey123 said:

Totally agree. I have been incredibly fortunate personally as I have worked from home throughout and not stepped foot in an office and, when restrictions were loosening and there was a push back to office working, my employer was clear that no one would be expected or forced to go in if they did not want to. Unfortunately, my girlfriend has not been so lucky and it really has exposed as you say the toxic work presenteeism culture that still exists, not to mention worse as you have alluded to. 

What I don't understand with Costa is their business is a prime candidate to benefit from furlough but they are so reluctant to use it. My sister and mum were both either told to utilise annual leave or be redeployed to 'essential' stores that could operate as takeaways in November, and they have again been told the same this time. Why would they not use furlough?

Perhaps even the small profits they get by staying open in lockdown is deemed worth it to putting employees at risk, perhaps they want workers to stay working and loyal to costa, cause perhaps if giving time off paid by furlough and time to look for another job, Costa won't have any workers coming back. 

I don't know how these companies think, but I do know it's insane that the support for a pandemic is tied to their job, Imagine if we had a system like canada where every citizen gets 2,000 dollars a month. Imagine how many less people would be facing homelessness or starvation. 

I think the government thinks they are saving jobs but in reality, surely by tieing the livelihoods of employees to the success of a business in a pandemic, only works to mean that those employees will have to deal with cut hours, less pay and whatever other ways the company will try to save money right now, whereas if the employee didnt have to rely on their employer than maybe their employers would have to do more to make people actually want to work for their company. 

It's the same principle as universal basic income. - People say that no one will wanna work on UBI, but that's not true, they'll just be less inclined to work for companies that make em miserable, so companies will have to stop making their workers miserable. 

[SheffJeff]

 

10 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

I think it is to do with when cases are low, as you say....and at the moment it's through the flippin roof.

 

7 minutes ago, Toilet Duck said:

The variation in R hasn't gone away and as far as we know it is still not every infected person that goes on to infect someone else, so understanding that forms part of how risky certain activities are. What the K number of the new variant is hasn't been determined yet. Anecdotally, far more household contacts seem to be getting infected now, whereas previously it was under 10%. Does that feed into the suggestions that the new variant is more transmissible (and is it the change in K that helps describe that?) Don't know at this stage! Need more data to be able to say for sure. But if it is more transmissible, then it's likely that there will be less variation in who goes on to transmit it. 

Thanks both, that explains it... been wondering for a while and google wasn't really helping.

Edited January 6, 2021 by SheffJeff
Duplicate quote

[xxialac]

"IF the virus does not change, and IF the vaccine works as expected, and IF the rollout is successful, and IF people obey the rules, then around 15 February, when the first four cohorts have been immunised, there will be substantial opportunities to relax the restrictions we currently face”.

(I've added most of the IFs)

More Johnson pie-in-the-sky, boosterish, unrealistic bollocks...

 

[Toilet Duck]

Just now, Copperface said:

Thanks, that's pretty good. Definitely justified move from a public health view as well.

Oh, looking at the data, I think it was a good call on the Oxford vaccine. And the key thing is, there actually was data to look at (WHO are stating that there is no scientific rationale for it, but that's incorrect, there is data there to support it). There isn't data for the Pfizer jab, they had a few people on their trial that didn't get their second shot for up to 42 days, but over 90% of participants got their second shot within 23 days. So, the company are saying, we can't guarantee that it will work. There's a couple of things at play in the UK specifically though. First, the company aren't liable if something goes wrong, so while they can suggest they don't agree with how it is being used, they can't insist on it (this won't be the case in the EU, so in Ireland, we are doing the two doses 3 weeks apart). Secondly, the same immune stimulant is used in both the Pfizer and AZ jabs (delivered in a different manner), so the Oxford data is being used to extrapolate what might happen with the Pfizer shots. The safe approach would be to use the longer gap with the AZ jab and stick to the 3 week gap with the Pfizer one, but they've obviously looked at the delivery schedules and taken a calculated risk. I don't think it's that big a gamble with the AZ shot. 

[Snerrick]

2 minutes ago, xxialac said:

"IF the virus does not change, and IF the vaccine works as expected, and IF the rollout is successful, and IF people obey the rules, then around 15 February, when the first four cohorts have been immunised, there will be substantial opportunities to relax the restrictions we currently face”.

(I've added most of the IFs)

More Johnson pie-in-the-sky, boosterish, unrealistic bollocks...

Do you code perchance?

[xxialac]

1 minute ago, Snerrick said:

Do you code perchance?

Heh

[Mellotr0n]

42 minutes ago, jparx said:

You lost me at “Dick Pound”

That was 100% all that I took from that article.

[hodgey123]

26 minutes ago, topmarksbri said:

Part of the issue is that the actual guidance is incredibly vague (as ever):

Work - you can only leave home for work purposes where it is
unreasonable for you to do your job from home, including but not
limited to people who work within critical national infrastructure,
construction or manufacturing that require in-person attendance

 

That bit in bold could literally be anyone - "I think it's unreasonable for me to work from home because I don't have my ergonomic chair there" etc. Of course companies are to blame but companies care about one thing and that's the bottom line. Blame should be with the government for not giving clearer more robust guidance. 

This is of course completely true and has been a consistent theme throughout with the government's mess of a response.

[xxialac]

Just now, Mellotr0n said:

That was 100% all that I took from that article.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dick_Trickle

A much older relative of Mr Pound.

[Mellotr0n]

36 minutes ago, zahidf said:

On vaccinations, there isn't any evidence yet on whether or not it stops Covid being spread. We won't know till Feb. Most vaccinations to stop people catching it AND spreading it though. We could be lucky.

Actually places like Israel (over 15% vaccinated) should start to provide some really, really useful data in the next couple of weeks.

[hodgey123]

8 minutes ago, DeanoL said:

There's still a cost to furlough for companies - national insurance contributions and any other benefits. Plus you can't furlough the cost of rent for all those stores. Anecdotally, they seem to be doing fairly well on takeout as they're the only place open and I think people want a warm drink for their socially distanced outdoor walks with a single friend.

(I still think they shouldn't be open though)

From personal experience, some days they do terribly (not even covering the wages of the staff on shift) and some days they do well, but nowhere near as well as they would be doing in normal circumstances. It goes back to what I said before - opening more shops gives more people an excuse or reason to be out when they shouldn't be. The government need to be firm on this but they won't. 

[kalifire]

[Toilet Duck]

2 minutes ago, Mellotr0n said:

Actually places like Israel (over 15% vaccinated) should start to provide some really, really useful data in the next couple of weeks.

Yep, they are the canary in the coal mine here. Hopefully we see a signal in a few weeks from their programme and it will reassure the rest of us that we can get there!

 

edit: Can't believe how much they paid for their vaccine though! (and should you be allowed to snap up as much as you want if you pay the market rate rather than the negotiated rate?)

Edited January 6, 2021 by Toilet Duck

[zahidf]

Johnson says government under legal duty to lift restrictions if no longer needed

Johnson says the lockdown regulations will be kept under continuous review.

And he says there is a legal obligation to remove them once they are no longer needed.

[Ozanne]

 

[Jime1977]

Years of experience have taught me that targets should be challenging and crucially also realistic. Foolishly challenging targets get missed, and sometimes even cause longer delays beyond what would have originally been a realistic date as people desperately scrabble to meet the challenge and get distracted.

The other worry I have here is that further erosion in confidence in the government is likely to occur if they miss another target - and I believe we need more confidence to allow more compliance with the rules.

That said - a bet on a vaccine wasn’t a sure one, and I think everyone would have taken having one being likely so effective and available before the end of 2020. The government did get that right (Huffpost reckons that was an argument Hancock persuaded Johnson of) so I have to give some credit. Plus as many have said - we do mass vaccinations well, and we don’t have as many pro-virus people as other countries (I prefer that term to anti-vaxxer).

I doubt we meet the target, but I do think a real difference will be made over the next two months. It is a tragic shame that the mountain to climb has been made quite so high by so much dither and delay though...

Personally I’m getting by assuming Glasto won’t happen (I think it’s too soon, and there’ll be too much uncertainty here and elsewhere). That makes me less anxious about when/if I’ll be vaccinated, and also gives me an outside chance at being pleasantly surprised. Mind you, I’m getting old, and have been many times, so it’s easier for me to take that view than I imagine it is for many others.

[Simsy]

32 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

schools are closed.

They're open for vulnerable pupils and the kids of key workers.

[philipsteak]

22 minutes ago, ace56blaa said:

This pandemic should have exposed how disgusting and unfair working practises in the UK are. Especially in the lower paid jobs that the majority of the population have. I have worked 6 or 7 different fast food and retail jobs and every single one with the exception of Greggs (who actually have pretty good pay and benefits for staff), treat their staff like crap, the majority of my jobs have tried to get away with underpaying me, overworking and in some cases "accidentally" not paying me for months at a time. It's got to a point where no one expects anything more than that. - This low paying jobs work on the assumption that they'll get mostly young people and temporary workers and once the worker has had enough of being treated like shit they'll move on. It's disgusting imagine if we had laws and practises that meant job security in these jobs, no more zero hour contracts, 

For some people this has gotten even worse due to the pandemic, where companies have binned staff hastily, tried to used government programs to profit, My company has binned off its entire staff twice only to bring them back when the government fixes furlough. - So it deffo fall on the government as well, because it's disgusting how most of the support have been put in hands of employers to decide the fate of their employees, how many more people would be better off with cash straight to their hands rather than relying on a job that is barely kept afloat by a closed economy. 

We need to fix work practises now. 

I've heard pretty good things about Greggs before

It is scary how bad some low paid workers are treated. We've had people quit working here to go somewhere else and then pretty quickly regret it. In some cases essentially beg to come back. We get pissed off with some of the things our bosses do, and think we get treated pretty badly at times but man there is so much worse out there

16 minutes ago, hodgey123 said:

 

What I don't understand with Costa is their business is a prime candidate to benefit from furlough but they are so reluctant to use it. My sister and mum were both either told to utilise annual leave or be redeployed to 'essential' stores that could operate as takeaways in November, and they have again been told the same this time. Why would they not use furlough?

We had a really odd situation after the November "lockdown". We reopened a handful of sites (was supposed to be 12 but some got closed because of the tier they were in) just so that we had a presence, so that we could "be there for our customers and members". My site was one that was open. And I can safely say from the number of guests we had that our customers didn't give a crap we were open and weren't bothered about us being there for them. We were losing money by being open, if we'd closed then we obviously would have lost all income but our major expense would have been covered by furlough. I think it got so bad on a couple of occasions that we actually had more staff than guests.

It became this weird battle between hostel managers/staff and senior management. They finally backed down and closed us all just before Christmas. But it lead to a lot of unnecessary stress, anger (towards senior management for making us do this, and people from high tiers for trying to travel), resentment, all for nothing. Or actually, less than nothing. There were times as well when I couldn't help thinking that by being open we (and by extension, me) were helping with the spread of the virus. And all for something so unimportant.

[stuartbert two hats]

1 hour ago, Chef said:

Is this what you are after?

 

EDIT; sorry just noticed this is % testing positive, not actual numbers so maybe not. 

 

 

 

I've spaffed my upvotes up the wall already.  That's exactly what I was looking for.  And it contains the data I was hoping to see - weaker evidence for this new variant being a big driver for infection, meaning that these measure may well work - and increasingly as the weather improves. 

Edited January 6, 2021 by stuartbert two hats

[balti-pie]

I'm frontline NHS staff, though i work in Psychiatry and not in anything medical. I got my vaccination appointment today: for 19/01. The system to book a slot was fairly easy and rudimentary, i'm just a bit surprised that the appointments are running mon to fri from 8am to 7pm and there's none available over the weekends: surely if you're desperate to push out the vaccine as soon as possible you wouldn't immediately discount 2/7th of the available time? 

well, i'm grateful for it happening, at least . . . . 

[squirrelarmy]

2 minutes ago, stuartbert two hats said:

I've spaffed by upvotes up the wall already.  That's exactly what I was looking for.  And it contains the data I was hoping to see - weaker evidence for this new variant being a big driver for infection, meaning that these measure may well work - and increasingly as the weather improves. 

It’s almost as if the real reason for the increase in cases is down to pre-xmas social mixing and not purely because of a different type of virus. 

[steviewevie]

 

[JoeyT]

56 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

schools are closed.

Forever? I must have missed that.

[steviewevie]

Johnson's opening statement to MPs - Summary and key extracts

Here are the key extracts from Boris Johnson’s opening statement to MPs.

• Johnson effectively set 15 February as a deadline for when people in the top four priority groups should be vaccinated. He said:

 

By February 15 the NHS is committed to offering a vaccination to everyone in the top four priority groups, including older care home residents and staff, everyone over 70, all frontline NHS and care staff, and all those who are clinically extremely vulnerable.

Later, in response to a question (see 12.06pm), Johnson suggested 15 February might be the point at which the government could start considering easing restrictions, but he was more guarded on this in his opening statement.

• Johnson said the vaccination programme was being accelerated. He said:

 

And in working towards that target there are already almost 1,000 vaccination centres across the country, including 595 GP-led sites with a further 180 opening later this week and 107 hospital sites – with another 100 later this week.

Next week we will also have seven vaccination centres opening in places such as sports stadia and exhibition centres.

Pharmacies are already working with GPs to deliver the vaccine in many areas of the country.

• He said people should be “extremely cautious” about the prospect of the lockdown being eased after the the February half-term, as he would like. The easing of the lockdown would be “gradual”, he said. He told MPs:

 

When we begin to move out of lockdown I promise [schools] will be the very first things to reopen.

That moment may come after the February half-term, although we should remain extremely cautious about the timetable ahead.

And as was the case last spring, our emergence from the lockdown cocoon will be not a big bang but a gradual unwrapping.

That is why the legislation this house will vote on later today runs until 31 March.

Not because we expect the full national lockdown to continue until then, but to allow a steady, controlled and evidence-led move down through the tiers on a regional basis.

• He said the government was under a legal obligation, in the restrictions, “to remove them if they are no longer deemed necessary to limit the transmission of the virus”.

• He said schools would be “the very first things to reopen” when the lockdown could be eased.

• He said the risks to children from being in school were “vanishingly small”. But schools had to be closed because of the wider risk, he said. He told MPs:

 

All the evidence shows that schools are safe, and that the risk posed to children by coronavirus is vanishingly small.

For most children the most dangerous part of going to school, even in the midst of this global pandemic, remains I’m afraid crossing the road in order to get there.

But the data showed, and our scientific advisers agreed, that our efforts to contain the spread of this new variant would not be sufficient if schools continued to act as a potential vector for spreading the virus between households.

• He said that 50,000 laptops had been delivered to schools on Monday for disadvantaged pupils, and that more than 100,000 were being delivered in the first week of terms.

• He thanked phone companies for offering free mobile data to disadvantaged pupils. He said:

We have partnered with some of the UK’s leading mobile operators to provide free mobile data to disadvantaged families to support access to education resources.

And I am very grateful to EE, Three, Tesco Mobile, Smarty, Sky Mobile, Virgin Mobile and Vodafone for supporting this offer.

 

From

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2021/jan/06/uk-covid-live-boris-johnson-parliament-vote-new-lockdown-latest-updates

Edited January 6, 2021 by steviewevie

[stuartbert two hats]