When will this shit end?

[steviewevie]

14 minutes ago, Ozanne said:

The government had plenty of the warnings in the build up with China and Italy yet still didn’t act. They had their own Operation Cygnus from a couple of years before which highlighted the many issues a respiratory virus would bring and still didn’t act. It’s not about hindsight if you can see a problem coming and don’t act quickly or effectively enough. 
 

Even if you want to give the government a pass over the first wave which I think is stunning then you can’t do that over the 2nd. In the summer PHE colleagues wrote to the PM to request the government use the summer lull to prepare for the winter. The government instead of doing that played around with breaking international law and the PM went on holiday again. Cases started to rise as predicted in the Autumn which caused SAGE and the LOTO to call for a short lockdown, the government still didn’t act. They brought in a tier system which didn’t work and was highlighted to them before the fact, they then brought in a lockdown weeks later on Halloween which wasn’t strong enough and longer enough. Calls for the government to cancel Christmas from medical experts went out and still the government didn’t act, instead bringing in a new tiering system which has seen nearly all regions be moved to the top tier. Which brings us to now with record level cases on a daily basis, hospitals filling up and Drs coming out saying the NHS is at breaking point calling for a national lockdown and still the government doesn’t act. They disappear for a week over Christmas only reappearing when a new vaccine is approved and the Brexit Trade Deal needs approving.

It’s not hindsight if people are pointing out what needs to be done and the government don’t act till it’s too late, that’s foresight. We’ve seen this too many times over the last 10 months and yes whilst plenty of other countries are wrestling with these dilemmas that doesn’t give the UK government a pass when these mistakes are entirely of their own making. We need the government when they get this advise from their advisors and experts warning them of a very really incoming issue to listen and act. 

Yeah, all this, they fucked it up at the start, and then they fucked it up again, and then they fucked it up some more.

[steviewevie]

5 minutes ago, Padjeq said:

Used to go to the brewdy a lot. If it gets things done quicker, I'll receive a vaccine from the barstaff.

whilst having a beer. Now that would be civilised.

[zahidf]

 

[gigpusher]

44 minutes ago, RobertProsineckisLighter said:

 

I was talking to my mum, a former hospital social worker about an article saying that hospitals were at 80% capacity or whatever the figure was. Her comments were so far that's a good year then as normally hospitals are manic now and people don't realise how bad it is every year. 

Obviously the pressures are different this year and the average stay seems to have gone up as treatment has improved.

Have the hospitals in the hardest hit areas stopped routine / non essential treatment at the moment? Granted this is awful for anyone affected by a cancellation but when you have limited resources difficult choices need to be made.

Although the problem is normally we would be doing lots of routine surgeries etc in amongst all that and that's stopped. My husband's cousin is in desperate need of a hysterectomy. She was told this back in February. She has had to go to A & E with what is termed catastrophic bleeds. She still hasn't had the op despite feeling desperately unwell for a very long time. That wouldn't have happened in normal times. My husband was meant to have an MRI scan on his knee. He was just discharged with no contact. He still has the knee problem in fact it's getting worse but he doesn't have the energy to start contacting Doctors etc especially when he knows he won't be seen for months anyway. The impact this year will have on the NHS will last years not to mention those who have died much sooner than they should have from cancers because they didn't seek treatment or get treatment when they should have. 

[Fuzzy Afro]

1 minute ago, gigpusher said:

Although the problem is normally we would be doing lots of routine surgeries etc in amongst all that and that's stopped. My husband's cousin is in desperate need of a hysterectomy. She was told this back in February. She has had to go to A & E with what is termed catastrophic bleeds. She still hasn't had the op despite feeling desperately unwell for a very long time. That wouldn't have happened in normal times. My husband was meant to have an MRI scan on his knee. He was just discharged with no contact. He still has the knee problem in fact it's getting worse but he doesn't have the energy to start contacting Doctors etc especially when he knows he won't be seen for months anyway. The impact this year will have on the NHS will last years not to mention those who have died much sooner than they should have from cancers because they didn't seek treatment or get treatment when they should have. 

Stuff like this is truly the greatest tragedy of 2020 btw. There are going to be a ridiculous number of excess cancer deaths in the coming years. 

[gigpusher]

Just now, Fuzzy Afro said:

Stuff like this is truly the greatest tragedy of 2020 btw. There are going to be a ridiculous number of excess cancer deaths in the coming years. 

Yep my brother will be one of them. Diagnosed with oesophageal cancer. He waited 4 months of not feeling able to eat properly. I know he doesn't like going to the doctor but in normal times I am sure he wouldn't have waited that long. By the time he went it had spread too much. 

I know so many friends etc who have lost loved ones to cancer this year. 

[zahidf]

 

[Ozanne]

 

[RobertProsineckisLighter]

19 minutes ago, Ozanne said:

The government had plenty of the warnings in the build up with China and Italy yet still didn’t act. They had their own Operation Cygnus from a couple of years before which highlighted the many issues a respiratory virus would bring and still didn’t act. It’s not about hindsight if you can see a problem coming and don’t act quickly or effectively enough. 
 

Even if you want to give the government a pass over the first wave which I think is stunning then you can’t do that over the 2nd. In the summer PHE colleagues wrote to the PM to request the government use the summer lull to prepare for the winter. The government instead of doing that played around with breaking international law and the PM went on holiday again. Cases started to rise as predicted in the Autumn which caused SAGE and the LOTO to call for a short lockdown, the government still didn’t act. They brought in a tier system which didn’t work and was highlighted to them before the fact, they then brought in a lockdown weeks later on Halloween which wasn’t strong enough and longer enough. Calls for the government to cancel Christmas from medical experts went out and still the government didn’t act, instead bringing in a new tiering system which has seen nearly all regions be moved to the top tier. Which brings us to now with record level cases on a daily basis, hospitals filling up and Drs coming out saying the NHS is at breaking point calling for a national lockdown and still the government doesn’t act. They disappear for a week over Christmas only reappearing when a new vaccine is approved and the Brexit Trade Deal needs approving.

It’s not hindsight if people are pointing out what needs to be done and the government don’t act till it’s too late, that’s foresight. We’ve seen this too many times over the last 10 months and yes whilst plenty of other countries are wrestling with these dilemmas that doesn’t give the UK government a pass when these mistakes are entirely of their own making. We need the government when they get this advise from their advisors and experts warning them of a very really incoming issue to listen and act. 

Its not about them getting a pass at all. They can't just listen to the science they need to listen to other advisors too and consider the impact of the lockdowns on all aspects of the country - weather you like it or not there is a cost benefit to be done with a lockdown. The government has balance everything the Dr's talk from their viewpoint, the scientists their's the economists their's. They don't have to worry about the bigger picture. 

Wales locked down - and look at them, one of the worst countries per capita in the world. 

 

[Chapple12345]

2 minutes ago, Ozanne said:

 

This is incredibly good news, especially after yesterday's announcement we should hopefully get the ball rolling in the new year 

[stuartbert two hats]

56 minutes ago, Copperface said:

If a decision now has been taken to separate the two AZ doses by up to 12 weeks, do we know what the strength of that first dose is?

ie Are they administering the half strength dose first or given the now longer separation, are they going full dollop on the first and second?

Full

[zahidf]

2 minutes ago, Chapple12345 said:

This is incredibly good news, especially after yesterday's announcement we should hopefully get the ball rolling in the new year 

Around 16% of over 80s i believe. 

[RobertProsineckisLighter]

19 minutes ago, gigpusher said:

Although the problem is normally we would be doing lots of routine surgeries etc in amongst all that and that's stopped. My husband's cousin is in desperate need of a hysterectomy. She was told this back in February. She has had to go to A & E with what is termed catastrophic bleeds. She still hasn't had the op despite feeling desperately unwell for a very long time. That wouldn't have happened in normal times. My husband was meant to have an MRI scan on his knee. He was just discharged with no contact. He still has the knee problem in fact it's getting worse but he doesn't have the energy to start contacting Doctors etc especially when he knows he won't be seen for months anyway. The impact this year will have on the NHS will last years not to mention those who have died much sooner than they should have from cancers because they didn't seek treatment or get treatment when they should have. 

I find this really interesting because I have had a friend who have been diagnosed with breast cancer during Covid, operated on and received all her treatments. 

I've had friends in other parts of the country who have had operations on sports injuries. Scans etc.. 

The fall out of this year is going to last a long time both in terms of health inequalities and wider inequality as it will be the public services that end up footing the bill for decades to come.

[Ozanne]

1 minute ago, RobertProsineckisLighter said:

Its not about them getting a pass at all. They can't just listen to the science they need to listen to other advisors too and consider the impact of the lockdowns on all aspects of the country - weather you like it or not there is a cost benefit to be done with a lockdown. The government has balance everything the Dr's talk from their viewpoint, the scientists their's the economists their's. They don't have to worry about the bigger picture. 

Wales locked down - and look at them, one of the worst countries per capita in the world. 

 

Of course the Scientists will worry about the bigger picture. A poorly functioning economy will have a knock on effect to health matters and vice versa.

During a global pandemic the government should be listening to the scientists, it’s pretty important given it’s a health crises.

I know there’s a cost associated with lockdowns it’s not a case of me liking it or not. To be honest I’m not sure why you said that as I haven’t once indicated that I don’t think there is one. There are ways to pay for the pandemic which can be done both during and after. However if we keep on going in and out of different forms of lockdowns then that is harmful to the economy giving us less of an ability to pay for it; when we could’ve acted tougher at the start and with a more consistent, competent approach.

The thing is the government aren’t really listening to anyone except themselves until it’s too late. If you don’t want to talk about Scientists then talk about Teachers and the Unions. Both telling the government for months that exam grades were an issue. The government ignored them, ignored the situation in the devolved nations and we know what happened next. They are now ignoring Teachers, Schools, Unions and SAGE over school reopenings with their announcement yesterday which also came too late. They had the warning from Economists and businesses too about furlough ending; the government ignored them and pressed on with the end of October deadline until they couldn’t any longer.

There’s a clear consistent theme here of the government ignoring incoming warnings of situations until it’s too late and it’s happening again. 

[stuartbert two hats]

39 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

Yeah, all this, they fucked it up at the start, and then they fucked it up again, and then they fucked it up some more.

Best summary of the Government's handling of the pandemic I've seen.

[steviewevie]

4 minutes ago, stuartbert two hats said:

Best summary of the Government's handling of the pandemic I've seen.

why thank you

[ShakeyCrash]

8 minutes ago, RobertProsineckisLighter said:

Its not about them getting a pass at all. They can't just listen to the science they need to listen to other advisors too and consider the impact of the lockdowns on all aspects of the country - weather you like it or not there is a cost benefit to be done with a lockdown. The government has balance everything the Dr's talk from their viewpoint, the scientists their's the economists their's. They don't have to worry about the bigger picture. 

Wales locked down - and look at them, one of the worst countries per capita in the world. 

 

Yep. And keep looking is my point.
 

We had the same approach at the beginning, deviated into being more cautious (work from home message never changed), had a firebreak, came out as the rest of the uk was going into lock down and people went bat shit crazy (majority couldn’t travel outside of local area before firebreak which was fine after firebreak), stopped pubs from serving alcohol and shut them at 6 pm, stood by as this did not have the desired effect, then had a nationwide lock down (coincides with schools closing) which has resulted in cases falling again.  Oh and unemployment is very high so bit of a lose lose situation.

Somewhere in there are reasons we have had it so bad and finding out why is not easy. Is it lockdown fatigue, people having a false sense of hope that things were better, confusing government messaging, a new variant?  Anecdotally my sense is people are doing more now than they did in the first lockdown regardless of rules and the main reasons things come down is things are shut.  

 

[Losing my hair]

56 minutes ago, RobertProsineckisLighter said:

You know full well I don't and that's not really the point - polls ask such small numbers of people and it's not a particularly varied subset of society that reply to them. 

Loads of folk support the lockdown, until it happens

Sorry but it's exactly the point - reputable polling companies go to great lengths to make their sample as representative as possible, clearly they can't poll people who won't take part in polls but how else do we evidence people's opinions.

You make the assertion that "Loads of folk support the lockdown, until it happens" so provide some evidence - How many is loads? How many people have you asked? How varied was your sample? What was the question you asked? 

 

[zahidf]

Tbf the UK scientists all said masks weren't needed repeatedly until a fee months into the pandemic. So SAGE have hardly been flawless.

[Zoo Music Girl]

17 minutes ago, RobertProsineckisLighter said:

I find this really interesting because I have had a friend who have been diagnosed with breast cancer during Covid, operated on and received all her treatments. 

I've had friends in other parts of the country who have had operations on sports injuries. Scans etc.. 

The fall out of this year is going to last a long time both in terms of health inequalities and wider inequality as it will be the public services that end up footing the bill for decades to come.

Likewise, have mentioned it many times but we have three loved ones diagnosed and getting treatment for cancer this year. Two of those had treatments delayed but then did have/are having them. My friend having chemo has had it since September and is going back in next week so they are prioritising cancer treatments that are already in progress still. It's a huge worry her being anywhere near a hospital for me at the moment. She's in tier 4 😞

[steviewevie]

1 minute ago, zahidf said:

Tbf the UK scientists all said masks weren't needed repeatedly until a fee months into the pandemic. So SAGE have hardly been flawless.

yep, the scientists have got things wrong too. The mask thing was partly due to them thinking it was more a problem of people catching covid from touching surfaces and then touching mask and face...but then science changed and aerosol transmission became the thing and subsequently so did masks.

[Zoo Music Girl]

1 hour ago, hillwalker said:

Haven't dropped by here in ages. My view from ITU in a large central london hospital is that patient numbers have doubled in the past week and we're on a par with the last peak. It's different to march in that we know how to treat it better so more people are in HDU beds rather that ITU but are staying longer. About a third less invasively ventilated patients than at that time. If you walk round the rest of the hospital it does look quite because of the cancelled elective services and lack of visitors. It's amazing how many people just wonder the hospital at normal times. Also seems to be more staff catching it this time - not sure if that's related to the more virulent strain but anecdotally it seems that way. staff vaccine is rolling out quickly now so I hope that helps with that. Not great times, we're planning on it peaking in 2/3 weeks but who knows. Stay safe everyone

 

Thanks for all the great work you do. Hope you get a vaccine soon.

[Losing my hair]

Just now, zahidf said:

Tbf the UK scientists all said masks weren't needed repeatedly until a fee months into the pandemic. So SAGE have hardly been flawless.

Okay, what the scientists said at the beginning was that wearing a mask/face covering does little to prevent you becoming infected - this is still true today unless you are wearing the correct grade of mask which is fitted correctly and is supported by other protective measures.

As more research was carried out and new evidence on mode of transmission, the number of infectious people who were asymptomatic and the length of time people were infectious before displaying symptoms came to light then new advice was issued that wearing a face covering could help the wearer unknowingly spread the virus. 

 

[hillwalker]

3 minutes ago, Zoo Music Girl said:

Thanks for all the great work you do. Hope you get a vaccine soon.

Thank you. I had the first shot of the Pfizer vaccine on Christmas Eve, it was a nice early Christmas present.  It has provided myself and colleagues who've had it with some sense of relief which is needed right now. I've always tried to remain optimistic and I can see a point next summer where we'll be back at the pub without a substantial meal and meeting friends and family again. I do have a hunch that we won't be at the farm in June though, not so much that it won't be safe then but it's too much of a gamble to proceed with all the build up work right now. But that's off topic a bit and has been discussed to death!

[ace56blaa]

48 minutes ago, RobertProsineckisLighter said:

Its not about them getting a pass at all. They can't just listen to the science they need to listen to other advisors too and consider the impact of the lockdowns on all aspects of the country - weather you like it or not there is a cost benefit to be done with a lockdown. The government has balance everything the Dr's talk from their viewpoint, the scientists their's the economists their's. They don't have to worry about the bigger picture. 

Wales locked down - and look at them, one of the worst countries per capita in the world. 

 

The problem, is the other peoples opinions views they are listening to, seemingly more than the scientists is Rishi Sunak, who probably has little expertise beyond "shutting economy bad, open up as much as possible, good" - They need to balance the health and wealth for sure, but I think everyone on here has said a million times, that they haven't done that. They have time and time again failed at restoring wealth while protecting health. - It is because when they have been opening up they haven't been considering health nearly as much as wealth. For example "Eat out to Help Out" a toddler could have told them that was a bad idea for the spread of the virus and it was, but they didn't think about it like that, they just wanted to get people out and spending in hospitality, so they didn't need to keep giving them continued support. Or when just last month when they came out of lockdown far too early, so people could go out and christmas shop and put us in the position we are in now. It's not that they need to consider the bigger picture, it's that they need to stop flat out ignoring scientists, especially when they've failed at every safety precaution and messaging around health to the point that lockdowns are the only defense that will work. 

If they had track and trace working for winter, isolation payments the whole year, the correct messaging, not trying to get people back into offices in September, purely for the wealth of Tory donors/landlords. Wealth was obviously the main driving force of government decisions up until November, hence why they ended furlough too soon initially etc. But they fucked up because it turns out public confidence and health and the spread of the virus has a lot more to do with economic bounce back than the government thought. 

Again obvious to most on here.