When will this shit end?

[Ozanne]

Just now, squirrelarmy said:

The centrists are the ones who have already realised that polarised political views don’t get you anywhere. 
 

A bit more reality for you. The last few successive Tory Governments have been the worst in a generation. That is an undisputed fact. 
 

Any half competent opposition would have been able to wipe the floor with them and at least hold them to account and should have easily gained power. 
 

The opposition they were up against was Corbyn. He was so ineffective as an opposition leader that the Tories nominated Boris The Clown Johnson to be their leader and The Clown won by a landslide. 
 

Corbyn completely failed as an opposition leader. The country would never get behind him. 
 

Starmer takes over and the effectiveness of the opposition shot up rapidly. We actually have an opposition leader who is actually opposing the government. 
 

Everything was starting to go smoothly until the last week until Corbyn decided he wants the attention to be back on him and now all the talk is about the divisions in Labour and not on how we are going to get rid of the incredibly corrupt government in power. 
 

If Corbyn really wanted what was best for the country he would resign from his seat. 

I don’t think Corbyn should resign from his seat as he is clearly a very good MP and his constituents like him. I would say he should probably just drop it and wait for the 3 months and which point he will hopefully be silently given the whip back instead of taking legal action; thus dragging Labour through the mud again. 

[mattiloy]

14 minutes ago, squirrelarmy said:

He was so ineffective as an opposition leader that the Tories nominated Boris The Clown Johnson to be their leader and The Clown won by a landslide. 
 

Starmer takes over and the effectiveness of the opposition shot up rapidly. We actually have an opposition leader who is actually opposing the government. 

If Corbyn really wanted what was best for the country he would resign from his seat. 

I think you’ve betrayed the intellectual integrity of your arguments here by showing that your perception is too heavily coloured by your own predjudice.

Boris may be a clown to you but he always was and remains wildly popular amongst vast swathes of the electorate. Specifically because he does not appear business like, cold, political, unrelatable. The same cannot be said of Starmer.

Corbyn was at 45% in the polls as recently as 2018. What changed was the brexit stance, the antisemitism debacle and Boris becoming tory leader. Starmer has not reached this level in the polls yet and probably never will.

The last one is absurd. Why would this change labour’s fortunes other than that there is an irrational hatred of Corbyn amongst some in the centre? He’s a backbench MP for gods sake. Furthermore, he would win in islington with or without the labour whip, such is his overwhelming popularity amongst his constituents  

Edited November 27, 2020 by mattiloy

[Ozanne]

Starmer has achieved the highest poll ratings of any leader of an opposition since Blair back in the summer. Whilst not unusual for a new leader to see a honeymoon period this was still significant given Blair and Cameron went on to win General Elections. 

[steviewevie]

Ahhh, sad really. Remember when people used to run around happily shouting Jez we can?

[squirrelarmy]

2 minutes ago, mattiloy said:

I think you’ve betrayed the intellectual integrity of your arguments here by showing that your perception is too heavily coloured by your own predjudice.

I don’t hide my views. I can’t stand the Tories and I know the country will never back Corbyn. 
 

It’s not an isolated view either. Vast swathes of the country feel the same way as I do and not had the representation. I don’t have any party loyalty. I voted Labour in the last election as it was the best chance of removing the Tory MP from my constituency.

 

The reason why I said Corbyn should step down is because he’s an easy target for the media to focus on. He is taking too much attention away from the bigger picture which is how do we get rid of the Tory party. 
 

He needs to step away from the limelight and let Starmer do his job and get elected as Prime Minister and then start the country on a step towards a fairer electoral system. If Labour manage to gain power then they need another vote on proportional representation. The left needs to have a bigger voice and currently their only realistic option is via the Labour Party. 
 

As long as we have a two party system nothing is going to change. 

[topmarksbri]

14 minutes ago, mattiloy said:

Corbyn was at 45% in the polls as recently as 2018. What changed was the brexit stance, the antisemitism debacle and Boris becoming tory leader. Starmer has not reached this level in the polls yet and probably never will.

This is factually untrue. Labour were at 45%, Corbyn's personal ratings have always been absolutely awful. From a polling point of view what we're currently seeing with Starmer is basically what we saw with Cameron pre 2010 where he's more popular with the general public than the party, who are a toxic brand with the public (wonder why that may be....)

 

16 minutes ago, mattiloy said:

I think you’ve betrayed the intellectual integrity of your arguments here by showing that your perception is too heavily coloured by your own predjudice.

The ironing is delicious. 

[priest17]

Must be hard for the old man coz a lot of the reason he didn't win wasn't even his fault. This is the point I had to stop supporting him

 

[Gingerfish79]

4 minutes ago, Ozanne said:

Starmer has achieved the highest poll ratings of any leader of an opposition since Blair back in the summer. Whilst not unusual for a new leader to see a honeymoon period this was still significant given Blair and Cameron went on to win General Elections. 

I take the point, put in both of those examples the Lib Dems were still a thing and so its not really a clear comparison. And importantly, after everything that had happened this year, Labour are still materially behind this awfully incompetent government in the polls. Starmers performance so far couldn't be described as anything more than average, and is currently on track to get beaten at the next election. His 'old school', school grade would be 'C, must do better'.

[bamber]

26 minutes ago, squirrelarmy said:

The centrists are the ones who have already realised that polarised political views don’t get you anywhere. 
 

A bit more reality for you. The last few successive Tory Governments have been the worst in a generation. That is an undisputed fact. 
 

Any half competent opposition would have been able to wipe the floor with them and at least hold them to account and should have easily gained power. 
 

The opposition they were up against was Corbyn. He was so ineffective as an opposition leader that the Tories nominated Boris The Clown Johnson to be their leader and The Clown won by a landslide. 
 

Corbyn completely failed as an opposition leader. The country would never get behind him. 
 

Starmer takes over and the effectiveness of the opposition shot up rapidly. We actually have an opposition leader who is actually opposing the government. 
 

Everything was starting to go smoothly until the last week until Corbyn decided he wants the attention to be back on him and now all the talk is about the divisions in Labour and not on how we are going to get rid of the incredibly corrupt government in power. 
 

If Corbyn really wanted what was best for the country he would resign from his seat. 

I think you are right in many ways with your analysis, except for your assertion that "The last few successive Tory Governments have been the worst in a generation" They have not been "the worst" in the sense that they have won power by attracting a majority, especially with regard to Brexit. Like it or not, the Tories seem to be reflecting the views of the majority better than Labour. Very many of our fellow citizens like what hey see now and will vote for it again. They are fools, but that is how it is for now.

[mattiloy]

5 minutes ago, Ozanne said:

Starmer has achieved the highest poll ratings of any leader of an opposition since Blair back in the summer. Whilst not unusual for a new leader to see a honeymoon period this was still significant given Blair and Cameron went on to win General Elections. 

When the general public barely knew who he was and actually ’dont knows’ was the winner.

Here are some actually relevant polls.

1 minute ago, squirrelarmy said:

As long as we have a two party system nothing is going to change. 

I completely agree. It isnt just the left who are inflexible, you see in the graphs attached that the lib dem vote holding up did for labour. The centrists were unwilling to back corbyn even for a 2nd eu vote.

But that shouldnt be the case, everybody should be able to feel both like they are voting in good conscience, in harmony with their beliefs without fear of wasting it.

I would be absolutely amazed if Starmer, whose early instincts indicate a man with a taste for authoritarianism and centralising power, gives any shrift to the idea of electoral reform.

If he had AV or PR in his manifesto, I would vote for him. That would be sufficient to persuade me. I daresay many on the left too.

[topmarksbri]

Just now, Gingerfish79 said:

I take the point, put in both of those examples the Lib Dems were still a thing and so its not really a clear comparison. 

The uncomfortable truth is that for Labour to do anything meaningful the Lib Dems need to be a thing to take votes off of swing voters in Tory/LD marginals. Strong Lib Dem showing is good for Labour. 

[Gingerfish79]

4 minutes ago, topmarksbri said:

The uncomfortable truth is that for Labour to do anything meaningful the Lib Dems need to be a thing to take votes off of swing voters in Tory/LD marginals. Strong Lib Dem showing is good for Labour. 

Completely agree. In an out and out two-horse race, Labour will never win.

[Ozanne]

11 minutes ago, Gingerfish79 said:

I take the point, put in both of those examples the Lib Dems were still a thing and so its not really a clear comparison. And importantly, after everything that had happened this year, Labour are still materially behind this awfully incompetent government in the polls. Starmers performance so far couldn't be described as anything more than average, and is currently on track to get beaten at the next election. His 'old school', school grade would be 'C, must do better'.

The different in polls from 6 months ago is huge, roughly 20 points has been wiped out of the Tory lead. That is big in modern day politics. It also takes time in this country for the electorate to turn against a governing party. You can see that with the Tories in the 90s, and then with the end of Labour in 2010. It’s not a quick thing and this shows that it takes many events over time for the public to turn off and see the opposition as a credible party of government.

12 minutes ago, mattiloy said:

When the general public barely knew who he was and actually ’dont knows’ was the winner.

Here are some actually relevant polls.

I completely agree. It isnt just the left who are inflexible, you see in the graphs attached that the lib dem vote holding up did for labour. The centrists were unwilling to back corbyn even for a 2nd eu vote.

But that shouldnt be the case, everybody should be able to feel both like they are voting in good conscience, in harmony with their beliefs without fear of wasting it.

I would be absolutely amazed if Starmer, whose early instincts indicate a man with a taste for authoritarianism and centralising power, gives any shrift to the idea of electoral reform.

If he had AV or PR in his manifesto, I would vote for him. That would be sufficient to persuade me. I daresay many on the left too.

That last poll shows good, steady work wiping out the Tory lead in 6 months which is a great achievement in my view. 

[jparx]

14 minutes ago, Gingerfish79 said:

I take the point, put in both of those examples the Lib Dems were still a thing and so its not really a clear comparison. And importantly, after everything that had happened this year, Labour are still materially behind this awfully incompetent government in the polls. Starmers performance so far couldn't be described as anything more than average, and is currently on track to get beaten at the next election. His 'old school', school grade would be 'C, must do better'.

I disagree with you there. Regardless of how bad the Tories have handled this, they received such a commanding majority less than a year ago. People can be stubborn and they won't easily change their opinion - it will take time, regardless of how poor they've handled this. Look at Trump for Christ's sake. We will have the inevitable inquiry which will shine a further light on some major issues as well, and Brexit is doomed to be a disaster. 

I think Labour and Sir Keir have done a good job so far in making up the ground they have. I'm not sure how much more they could have flipped the polls in under a year. I know people personally who were Labour voters forever but flipped Tory at the last election, and they aren't the types to admit they were wrong easily and quickly. They will get there, though.

[efcfanwirral]

Tories are the government of continuity. The idea that the Corbyn style left get in terrifies some people, as it probably should, as the only way to change a country so unequal and capitalist led is to forcibly remove from some to give to others. And that involves authoritarianism to make sure people comply. 

Turning a capitalist country socialist with the world as it is now will get it completely ruined by America, banks and big corporations (the real leaders of the western world) and lead to worse poverty than its trying to prevent (though I guess we'd all be in it together!).

Not to mention if it was similar real polling numbers 60% of the country would be dead against it. 

I can confidently say socialism won't work in the UK ever. And I regretfully voted for Corbyn twice before realising it 

[Radiochicken]

2 hours ago, mattiloy said:

Or alternatively for insecure egomaniac Keith Starmer, its all about image and winning to appear like a ’strong man’. Whilst for Corbyn its about principles, honesty and campaigning to affect real change.

If we get a blairite government or a tory government there is no difference to me so the internal machinations of the labour party are important. And at least you expect to get fucked when its coming from the tories so you have time to lube up.

“If we get a blairite government or a tory government there is no difference to me.”

1. Blairite is just a silly term in 2020.

2. There is obviously a difference, and if you can’t see it then ideology is blinding you to any sort of progress away from eternal Tory rule.

[jparx]

2 minutes ago, Radiochicken said:

“If we get a blairite government or a tory government there is no difference to me.”

1. Blairite is just a silly term in 2020.

2. There is obviously a difference, and if you can’t see it then ideology is blinding you to any sort of progress away from eternal Tory rule.

Preach brother.

[mattiloy]

20 minutes ago, Radiochicken said:

“If we get a blairite government or a tory government there is no difference to me.”

1. Blairite is just a silly term in 2020.

2. There is obviously a difference, and if you can’t see it then ideology is blinding you to any sort of progress away from eternal Tory rule.

Please elaborate upon the difference because it was splitting hairs from an economic standpoint. New labour were champions of the post thatcher/reagan neoliberal consensus.

Deregulated financial markets, PFI, tuition fees..

Even the privatisation of royal Mail was a labour idea.

Then there were the wars. 
 

If boris pursues a truly keynesian recovery, secures a good brexit deal and oversees the massive investment in infrastructure and green energy that he has promised and abstains from any overseas military intervention, it will have been a more progressive government than any new labour administration.

The chart below shows government spending as a % of GDP. The difference from major to new labour is negligible*
 

and in fact it goes down, all the way until new labour invaded afghanistan and Iraq when it ticked up as a consequence 

Edited November 27, 2020 by mattiloy

[zahidf]

Ha ha ha . So fcking lame

 

https://m.huffingtonpost.co.uk/amp/entry/oxford-university-astrazeneca-vaccine-uk-flag-union-jack_uk_5fbfdd14c5b68ca87f827a0e/?__twitter_impression=true

Edited November 27, 2020 by zahidf

[bamber]

5 minutes ago, zahidf said:

Ha ha ha . So fcking lame

https://m.huffingtonpost.co.uk/amp/entry/oxford-university-astrazeneca-vaccine-uk-flag-union-jack_uk_5fbfdd14c5b68ca87f827a0e/?__twitter_impression=true

Un-fucking-believable. Sometimes I just don't recognise the country I was born and raised in.

[st dan]

15 minutes ago, zahidf said:

Ha ha ha . So fcking lame

 

https://m.huffingtonpost.co.uk/amp/entry/oxford-university-astrazeneca-vaccine-uk-flag-union-jack_uk_5fbfdd14c5b68ca87f827a0e/?__twitter_impression=true

Amazing .. let me guess, he has friends who own a label printing company who he can throw more billions at to supply these? 

[bamber]

7 minutes ago, st dan said:

Amazing .. let me guess, he has friends who own a label printing company who he can throw more billions at to supply these? 

The rampant cronyism afoot in our government will be  punished in due course. The Good Law project are on all this (please donate as they need cash) Unlike America, in the UK the PM can't just pardon wrongdoers. We will have our day in court. https://goodlawproject.org/

Edited November 27, 2020 by bamber

[steviewevie]

2 minutes ago, bamber said:

The rampant cronyism afoot in our government will be  punished in due course. The Good Law project are on all this (please donate as they need cash) Unlike America, in the UK the PM can't just pardon wrongdoers. We will have our day in court. https://goodlawproject.org/

I don't know...they seem to be getting away with it more and more, as if it's allowed during a crisis or something...and eventually it just gets normalised.

[Ozanne]

4 minutes ago, bamber said:

The rampant cronyism afoot in our government will be  punished in due course. The Good Law project are on all this (please donate as they need cash) Unlike America, in the UK the PM can't just pardon wrongdoers. We will have our day in court. https://goodlawproject.org/

What would the repercussions be though? 

[efcfanwirral]

 

33 minutes ago, zahidf said:

Ha ha ha . So fcking lame

 

https://m.huffingtonpost.co.uk/amp/entry/oxford-university-astrazeneca-vaccine-uk-flag-union-jack_uk_5fbfdd14c5b68ca87f827a0e/?__twitter_impression=true

Seeing that flag on there is almost enough to make me into an anti vaxxer...