When will this shit end?

[Fuzzy Afro]

4 minutes ago, FestivalJamie said:

Hi I work in a theme park (not LEGOLAND though) and they weren’t shut under tier 3.

I was thinking initially that we wouldn’t reopen in December but after last night’s leak I’m pretty confident we will be given only “wet pubs” and bookies seem to be affected by the strictest measures.

That being said though, I hope we toughen up our covid rules. Before we shut for lockdown it was chaos and most people were not respecting rule of 6 or social distancing, so we need to toughen up on those, and just something to be mindful of if you do go to Legoland this Christmas!

 

This one I find really weird. Bookies were getting shut left, right and centre under tier 3 rules before the lockdown. Is there some evidence that shows betting shops are responsible for outbreaks? I guess you want to shut down anywhere that encourages gatherings of older people (are bingo halls also closed?)

[Ozanne]

20 minutes ago, Zoo Music Girl said:

Yeah maybe. As I say it's public transport that worries me really and any test would be done before travel so it wouldn't really solve that bit. If we can avoid trains etc then quite a lot of the worry would be gone for me as we don't really get exposed to many people in our day to day.

I'm not big on Christmas and would happily spend it at home, just the two of us. It's more just trying to please everyone else really. Some conversations to be had! 

Would your family go with a postponement till the weather improves and you can be outside/medications are around?

[stuartbert two hats]

7 minutes ago, FestivalJamie said:

Hi I work in a theme park (not LEGOLAND though) and they weren’t shut under tier 3.

I was thinking initially that we wouldn’t reopen in December but after last night’s leak I’m pretty confident we will be given only “wet pubs” and bookies seem to be affected by the strictest measures.

That being said though, I hope we toughen up our covid rules. Before we shut for lockdown it was chaos and most people were not respecting rule of 6 or social distancing, so we need to toughen up on those, and just something to be mindful of if you do go to Legoland this Christmas!

I'm pretty shocked they were open under tier 3. I agree that whatever the toughened up "top tier" is, it's unlikely to allow Legoland to open.

[Crazyfool01]

Just now, stuartbert two hats said:

I'm pretty shocked they were open under tier 3. I agree that whatever the toughened up "top tier" is, it's unlikely to allow Legoland to open.

Hopefully they add another brick in this wall .... 

[xxialac]

56 minutes ago, Zoo Music Girl said:

If the tiers are being toughened up (which they probably should) then I don't think my life is going to feel much different from December 2nd. If the gym reopens I'll go back but other than that I think we'll stay pretty locked down. And I can definitely see the argument for keeping that closed too (I've managed to exercise pretty successfully at home during both lockdowns, but mainly because I do classes which are fairly easy to do from home). 

Really don't know what to do for the best re Christmas though. Main issue for us is public transport as I think hire cars will be even more expensive than they were back in summer. If the trains are normal levels of busy I don't know how great I feel about getting one to either of our sets of parents

Also a week is a pretty short time to get to see everyone in. If we get trains to and from one set and then either back home or straight to the other we will be coming into contact with more people than we have for the past two months or more in the space of a few days.

Don't know what the answer is really. Will see what Johnson says tomorrow and then try to come to some kind of decision about it all.

I think deep down I feel like it's quite a lot of risk to take when the vaccine is so close. If it wasn't for the public transport issue I think I'd feel happier about it.

Just my thoughts: not judging anyone else as I know these choices are tough and personal to all. 

I would either take the car route and have the windows open (wear coats!) or take a small foldup chair and sit next to an open window in between carriages. There's also talk of opening windows more generally on the trains which would help significantly and it would be reckless if they don't take this simple measure.

 

[Ozanne]

1 minute ago, xxialac said:

I would either take the car route and have the windows open (wear coats!) or take a small foldup chair and sit next to an open window in between carriages. There's also talk of opening windows more generally on the trains which would help significantly and it would be reckless if they don't take this simple measure.

 

That’s just nicer in general, I find trains can get so stuffy. 

[xxialac]

Just now, Ozanne said:

That’s just nicer in general, I find trains can get so stuffy. 

It would be so simple for the operators to write an email to their customers letting them know why they are bringing this in new measure and to wrap up to prepare for it. And would be just for that week.

I bet they don't...

[stuartbert two hats]

Just seen a tweet that pretty much sums up the Christmas situation:

 

 

[Ozanne]

4 minutes ago, xxialac said:

It would be so simple for the operators to write an email to their customers letting them know why they are bringing this in new measure and to wrap up to prepare for it. And would be just for that week.

I bet they don't...

Pretty much sums up the past few months in general, people in leadership permission not even trying to reach out to the public to get them on board then left with an even tougher task. 

[xxialac]

2 minutes ago, Ozanne said:

Pretty much sums up the past few months in general, people in leadership permission not even trying to reach out to the public to get them on board then left with an even tougher task. 

Yeah, the messaging on this will be chaotic, confused and last minute.

Ironic that Johnson was sold to the public as a great communicator and he has presided over chronically bad communication on his watch. The Cabinet don't even know the rules - how can the public?

[Zoo Music Girl]

15 minutes ago, Ozanne said:

Would your family go with a postponement till the weather improves and you can be outside/medications are around?

They probably would, yeah. Hence why I'm so torn really. Seems mean to not see them for a fairly minimal risk and there will be added pressure as everyone else will be doing it, in their eyes at least. Throughout the pandemic me and my partner have been far more wary than all of our parents so it makes it a bit tricky to always be the bad guys saying no to stuff.

[efcfanwirral]

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2020/11/21/exclusive-two-covid-tests-week-could-win-people-freedom-pass/

I have a feeling this won't be as temporary as they say. Papers please....

[xxialac]

2 minutes ago, Zoo Music Girl said:

They probably would, yeah. Hence why I'm so torn really. Seems mean to not see them for a fairly minimal risk and there will be added pressure as everyone else will be doing it, in their eyes at least. Throughout the pandemic me and my partner have been far more wary than all of our parents so it makes it a bit tricky to always be the bad guys saying no to stuff.

Your parents were 'always the bad guys' in your childhood setting boundaries that were in your best long term interests.

The tables have simply turned!

[Zoo Music Girl]

18 minutes ago, xxialac said:

I would either take the car route and have the windows open (wear coats!) or take a small foldup chair and sit next to an open window in between carriages. There's also talk of opening windows more generally on the trains which would help significantly and it would be reckless if they don't take this simple measure.

 

Yeah issue with hire car is cost really. We spent over £200 for a weekend visit back in July. God knows what it would be over Christmas! Will look into it though.

[Mark E. Spliff]

3 hours ago, eFestivals said:

Why do you think specifically the Jews are not permitted the same as other peoples?

Having told you repeatedly that I don't question Israel's right to exist, there's nothing more I can add.

3 hours ago, eFestivals said:

what's irrational about the idea of 'a people' having a place to collectively call home?

You've changed my words.  I specifically called Zionism irrational.  I’ve already explained why I think that, in terms of magic iron age books, but I’ll try to put it another way: “Sorry chaps, we’ve decided that it’s time that the worldwide disaspora of Celts and Druids finally get reparation for the Romans kicking them out so we’re re-homing them in the South West of England.  Let us know if you need any help with packing.”  You’re now going to pull me up for being facetious, but the true story is even more batshit-crazy than that:

If there ever was a historical Jesus, he was just a revolutionary Jew who was executed for opposing the Roman occupation.  After his death, his following evolved from radical anti-Roman ideology to a religion.  200 years later, in order to make this new religion palatable to the Romans, a bullshit story was added to the texts whereby the Romans didn’t want to execute God, but the Jews demanded it - even choosing to release a mass murderer rather than Jesus.  (In case anyone didn’t get the message, they even had these fictitious, comedy Jews wailing ‘this stain will be upon us for the rest of history.’)  This worked - Rome became Christian, and the Jews were now set up for exiles, pogroms, ghettos, Spanish Inquisition and the Holocaust. Throughout these 1700 years of brutality, Islamic countries were the most reliable refuges for the Jews, as they don’t accept the New Testament so don’t have that scriptural justification for antisemitism.

So… Muslims: generally okay with the Jews; Christians: not so much.  Then how did we end up with Christian countries paving the path to the creation of Israel with the Balfour declaration?  Turns out Balfour and Lloyd George were Christian fundamentalists, who believed the Jews returning to Jerusalem was a necessary first step before Armageddon and the second coming of Christ.  Prior to the fundamentalist Christians getting involved, ‘Zionism’ was just the Hebrew belief in the eventual coming of the Messiah - not a movement to physically repatriate Jews to their home of 2000 years ago.

I agree that Israel has a right to exist for pragmatic, rational reasons - I.e. the wars have been fought, the evictees are mostly dead, and the bodies are already in the ground - to try to reverse that would only result in more bloodshed.  However, the whole world opposes the continued illegal settlement process, as it pours petrol on the situation.  The only reason it continues is that the Zionist settlers believe they’re part of something which is greater than international law, and they’re supported by Christian fundamentalists in the US who’re still hoping for Armageddon.

If any of the above sounds in any way rational, you’ve got better eyesight than me.  If you do look at the link I’ve included above, click on the ‘about’ tab - that organisation's viewpoint on Israel/Palestine are exactly the same as mine.

[Zoo Music Girl]

4 minutes ago, xxialac said:

Your parents were 'always the bad guys' in your childhood setting boundaries that were in your best long term interests.

The tables have simply turned!

True! Honestly could go either way on this. 

[xxialac]

Just now, Zoo Music Girl said:

Yeah issue with hire car is cost really. We spent over £200 for a weekend visit back in July. God knows what it would be over Christmas! Will look into it though.

Sounds painful. All the more reason to go down the train route.

People are overwhelmingly static on trains so you are only really at risk from the small number of people near you. And they'll be wearing masks. And the windows should be open. Doesn't feel like a major risk such as a maskless pub or a crammed tube train. 

[kalifire]

2 hours ago, eFestivals said:

They could, for example, say "outdoor live music will be able to resume on 1st May (subject to the NHS situation in May)".

This is how Melbourne did it. They produced a very clear, coherent COVID 'roadmap', which you can see here.

summary-last-step-restrictions-22-november.pdf

[Fuzzy Afro]

This thread is basically a lot of talk about Christmas rules and then @Mark E. Spliff arguing about something with @eFestivals that the rest of us stopped caring about three days ago 

[Ozanne]

6 minutes ago, Zoo Music Girl said:

They probably would, yeah. Hence why I'm so torn really. Seems mean to not see them for a fairly minimal risk and there will be added pressure as everyone else will be doing it, in their eyes at least. Throughout the pandemic me and my partner have been far more wary than all of our parents so it makes it a bit tricky to always be the bad guys saying no to stuff.

I know you guys have been very diligent with the rules so it’s gonna be tough!

 

9 minutes ago, xxialac said:

Yeah, the messaging on this will be chaotic, confused and last minute.

Ironic that Johnson was sold to the public as a great communicator and he has presided over chronically bad communication on his watch. The Cabinet don't even know the rules - how can the public?

That’s what happens when you put together a bunch of the Vote Leave tools in a cabinet and ask them to run a country in a crises. 
 

6 minutes ago, efcfanwirral said:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2020/11/21/exclusive-two-covid-tests-week-could-win-people-freedom-pass/

I have a feeling this won't be as temporary as they say. Papers please....

I hate the phrasing in this type of thing ‘win freedom’, people have their freedom now. Try living in North Korea or in some of the countries in Africa where freedoms are truly limited. 

[Fuzzy Afro]

2 minutes ago, Ozanne said:

I know you guys have been very diligent with the rules so it’s gonna be tough!

 

That’s what happens when you put together a bunch of the Vote Leave tools in a cabinet and ask them to run a country in a crises. 
 

I hate the phrasing in this type of thing ‘win freedom’, people have their freedom now. Try living in North Korea or in some of the countries in Africa where freedoms are truly limited. 

Um, no. You can not argue that we have our freedom when people are literally banned from socialising with people they don’t live with. It’s perfectly legitimate to argue that these curbs are necessary and appropriate, but you cannot argue we have our freedom. You’re moving the goalposts here. 

[Zoo Music Girl]

10 minutes ago, xxialac said:

Sounds painful. All the more reason to go down the train route.

People are overwhelmingly static on trains so you are only really at risk from the small number of people near you. And they'll be wearing masks. And the windows should be open. Doesn't feel like a major risk such as a maskless pub or a crammed tube train. 

No I know. We have got trains several times to visit people this year, so it's not like I haven't done it. Those trains were all very empty compared to normal though. My worry really is that if everyone is given one week to visit everyone then trains will be packed even more than they usually are around Christmas (so standing most of the way, rammed in between seats etc). We can get a cab to the station but not for visiting my parents as just too far away really, so tube will be involved too.

I know the risks are minimal in the grand scheme of things. I think my point really is just that I'm not arsed about Christmas so it feels weird to be taking risks when I don't need to, just because other people want us to. We made the assessment to visit people back in summer based on mainly being outdoors and numbers being low so feels weird to willingly go out of our way to introduce risk at this time of year.

Will see what happens in next few weeks. 

Edited November 22, 2020 by Zoo Music Girl

[mattiloy]

don't know if anybody mentioned this one thats been doing the rounds from have i got news for you some days ago.

usually i'm all for comedy reaching into uncomfortable places, even if something close to my heart is the butt of the joke, but this guy jokes that he would see glastonbury bombed on account of its full of corbyn and bob dylan fans...

i found it hard to believe the bbc didn't edit it out?

it was shocking, but not witty, or funny at all really. & given in recent years there has been a pattern of attacks against for example the bataclan, the MEN and other large events - not to mention attacks by fascists on the left - utoya in norway, jo cox etc. i'd be lying if i said that it had never crossed my mind that glastonbury would presumably be a good target for terrorists. maybe it is just because its closer to home but i thought it was extremely poor taste. and even worse that nobody challenged him, including labour peer joan bakewell.
 

 

[xxialac]

1 minute ago, Zoo Music Girl said:

No I know. We have got trains several times to visit people several times this year, so it's not like I haven't done it. Those trains were all very empty compared to normal though. My worry really is that if everyone is given one week to visit everyone than trains will be packed even more than they usually are around Christmas (so standing most of the way, rammed in between seats etc). We can get a cab to the station but not for visiting my parents as just too far away really, so tube will be involved too.

I know the risks are minimal in the grand scheme of things. I think my point really is just that I'm not arsed about Christmas so it feels weird to be taking risks when I don't need to, just because or her people want us too. We made the assessment to visit people back in summer based on mainly being outdoors and numbers being low so feels weird to willingly go out of our way to introduce risk at this time of year.

Will see what happens in next few weeks. 

Sounds very sensible to me. 

Your parents have presumably both had dozens and dozens of Christmases plus will be getting the vaccine early in the New Year. There's a real argument for Tough Love here. Easter or whenever can be celebrated exactly as you would have done Christmas only with the ability to hug, relax and feel like a proper celebration.

[Zoo Music Girl]

2 minutes ago, xxialac said:

Sounds very sensible to me. 

Your parents have presumably both had dozens and dozens of Christmases plus will be getting the vaccine early in the New Year. There's a real argument for Tough Love here. Easter or whenever can be celebrated exactly as you would have done Christmas only with the ability to hug, relax and feel like a proper celebration.

All true. I think my parents would understand if we made the call not to see them. My partner's parents, particularly his mum, will be more of an issue I feel!