When will this shit end?

[efcfanwirral]

Two opposing views here..

But the comments on this twitter thread are genuinely scary for the next few months - I think personally that we have no chance of getting on top of this with restrictions now, regardless of Christmas. It's about 50/50 now of people who dont seem to want to follow any rules 

[steviewevie]

3 minutes ago, Mark E. Spliff said:

If there was an attack on Labour from a fundamentalist Muslim group who were keen on female genital mutilation, I'd tell them to fuck off.  If there were an attack on Labour from Christian fundamentalists who were upset about contraception or abortion, I'd tell them to fuck off.  The source of these antisemitism claims are the Jewish Labour Movement, who are opposed by left wing Jewish groups for being a politically-motivated Zionist group.  Zionism comes with the same irrational baggage as the rest of the religious fundamentalist nutters, e.g. believing their magic Iron Age book gives them a divine right to lands which other people are already living on.

If you want to stand by the fundamentalists along with Trump and co., that's your choice, but left wing Jewish groups will get extremely angry and offended that you're equating that with standing up for Jews.

yeah...but there was this EHRC report...etc.

[topmarksbri]

8 minutes ago, DickButkis said:

I can't understand even why it's acceptable she is a Labour MP to begin with. It also just further highlights an agenda against a man who has fought racism all his life.

I don't see how one follows the other? These seem to be two separate issues - her dodgy past doesn't somehow absolve Corbyn?

[eFestivals]

3 minutes ago, Mark E. Spliff said:

Zionism comes with the same irrational baggage as the rest of the religious fundamentalist nutters, e.g. believing their magic Iron Age book gives them a divine right to lands which other people are already living on.

Forget about the divine right.

Today, most Israelis live on the land they were born on, and today most Palestinians don't.

Whether we like how the state of Israel came about - 70 years ago - should matter as much as whether we like how the state of Pakistan came about (which in case you've not noticed, was much the same thing but with much worse violence).

There's lots to criticise Israeli govts about, but existing isn't one of them.

[Crazyfool01]

It’s simple for me anyway ... we have a vaccine coming ... likely the old will get protected ... mental health will be dramatically worse if we choose to (potentially) kill off our loved ones for the sake of 1 day ... or waiting a very short period of time ... 

[DickButkis]

1 minute ago, topmarksbri said:

I don't see how one follows the other? These seem to be two separate issues - her dodgy past doesn't somehow absolve Corbyn?

He hasn't done anything for a need to be absolved. The fact that a person with a history such as hers can openly criticise him and people agree with it just further highlights the agenda to vilify a man as a racist when he has spent all his life opposing racism. 

[topmarksbri]

Just now, DickButkis said:

He hasn't done anything for a need to be absolved.

The mural? Zionists don't understand irony?

[steviewevie]

What Corbyn fanboys are going through is similar to what I went through with Rolf Harris.

Still at the denial stage I guess.

[topmarksbri]

11 minutes ago, Mark E. Spliff said:

If there was an attack on Labour from a fundamentalist Muslim group who were keen on female genital mutilation, I'd tell them to fuck off.  If there were an attack on Labour from Christian fundamentalists who were upset about contraception or abortion, I'd tell them to fuck off.  The source of these antisemitism claims are the Jewish Labour Movement, who are opposed by left wing Jewish groups for being a politically-motivated Zionist group.  Zionism comes with the same irrational baggage as the rest of the religious fundamentalist nutters, e.g. believing their magic Iron Age book gives them a divine right to lands which other people are already living on.

If you want to stand by the fundamentalists along with Trump and co., that's your choice, but left wing Jewish groups will get extremely angry and offended that you're equating that with standing up for Jews.

Do you believe the only jewish people offended by Corbyn's history/the issues in the EHRC report are ultra-zionists? Because I can tell you, that's not the case..

[alanr]

23 minutes ago, Fuzzy Afro said:

Eid and Diwali and Yom Kippur and other religious festivals simply aren’t important to the majority of people in the UK. Christmas is. 

Many (myself included) would argue that christmas ceased to be a religious festive many years ago, and is now a 100% commercial event

[steviewevie]

4 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

What Corbyn fanboys are going through is similar to what I went through with Rolf Harris.

Still at the denial stage I guess.

my daughter's going through the same thing with Johnny Depp.

[DickButkis]

7 minutes ago, topmarksbri said:

The mural? Zionists don't understand irony?

Stop clutching at straws

[Crazyfool01]

How many on here clapped for the nhs last time and think it’s now acceptable that they are thrown into chaos a couple of  weeks after xmas for the sake of a few pairs of socks and a multipack of lynx ? 

Edited November 19, 2020 by crazyfool1

[st dan]

16 minutes ago, efcfanwirral said:

Two opposing views here..

But the comments on this twitter thread are genuinely scary for the next few months - I think personally that we have no chance of getting on top of this with restrictions now, regardless of Christmas. It's about 50/50 now of people who dont seem to want to follow any rules 

Making it as extreme as saying if you have a small Christmas gathering with your family you will then be burying them a few weeks later is absurd. This is simply not the case for the majority of families who are low risk - example I’d love to be able to have Christmas dinner with my wife and child and my parents. 5 of us across 2 households. 

Any of those in the high risk categories should remain at home this year, as will unfortunately be the case for my grandparents. We won’t be having them round even if we are ‘allowed to’. 

Language as above is only going to create a bigger divide, if you stop people from having the opportunity to self assess and make their own calculated decisions. 

Edited November 19, 2020 by st dan

[xxialac]

52 minutes ago, fraybentos1 said:

This is just utter nonsense. Ok we get it- you don't like Xmas. It is not meaningless to so many. This forum is genuinely baffling at times.

Yes, it is meaningless compared to not contributing to the unnecessary death of thousands of people or the impact on people's livelihoods as their businesses or employers suffer an unnecessary slowdown with a resurgence in cases.

 

Edited November 19, 2020 by xxialac

[topmarksbri]

2 minutes ago, DickButkis said:

Stop clutching at straws

Do you not believe these things to be things worth apologizing for? If Boris had liked an image showing Muslims as terrorists or saying that Sikh's don't get pub culture would you?

[Crazyfool01]

1 minute ago, st dan said:

Making it as extreme as saying if you have a small Christmas gathering with your family you will then be burying them a few weeks later is absurd. This is simply not the case for the majority of families who are low risk - example I’d love to be able to have Christmas dinner with my wife and child and my parents. 5 of us across 2 households. 

Any of those in the high risk categories should remain at home this year, as will unfortunately be the case for my grandparents. We won’t be having them round even if we are ‘allowed to’. 

Language as above is only going to create a bigger divide, if you stop people from having the opportunity to self assess and use their own discretion as they see fit. 

Fair point and sensible ... the concern is also the general spread though ... which gets through to the elderly and vulnerable at a later stage ... are you isolating after to mitigate this ? 

[fraybentos1]

3 minutes ago, xxialac said:

Yes, it is meaningless compared to not contributing to the unnecessary death of thousands of people and the impact on people's livelihoods as their businesses of firms suffer an unnecessary slowdown.

 

Don't think me having a small family gathering is going to do much to contribute and I'm certainly not spending xmas alone- thanks for your concern though.

[DickButkis]

5 minutes ago, topmarksbri said:

Do you not believe these things to be things worth apologizing for? If Boris had liked an image showing Muslims as terrorists or saying that Sikh's don't get pub culture would you?

Are you saying he hasn't apologised?

[mattiloy]

2 minutes ago, topmarksbri said:

Zionists don't understand Irony? Liking/commenting on a mural showing clearly antisemitic tropes?

This is clearly rubbish and not antisemitism but this doesn't mean that there issues that are aren't an issue.

Zionism isn’t judaism. Its fair to criticise Zionism. Its weird in the modern secular age for reasonable people to say ’Yeah i agree, because this old book which also glorifies violent wars against non-jews, homophobia, misogyny etc, says so, You should own this land.

For the other one, Corbyn acknowledged his mistake and made a statement about it at the time. It also is clear for me that his intentions in liking/commenting were support for anticapitalism, the main theme of the piece, not antisemitism.

I’m with @eFestivalsthough, whatever was wrong with the balfour declaration and everything that came afterwards- those people whose grandparents emigrated to israel are there now through no fault of their own and it would be equally wrong to confiscate their land back. A pragmatic two state solution is the only solution but sadly it seems from the progress in the last decades like that isn’t enough for the powerful religious hardliners.

And i also agree that there are extreme elements of the left that sadly exhibit antisemitism but that this is far from the norm in the labour party, it is a tiny fraction, and JC is not responsible for their views.

[efcfanwirral]

8 minutes ago, st dan said:

Making it as extreme as saying if you have a small Christmas gathering with your family you will then be burying them a few weeks later is absurd. This is simply not the case for the majority of families who are low risk - example I’d love to be able to have Christmas dinner with my wife and child and my parents. 5 of us across 2 households. 

Any of those in the high risk categories should remain at home this year, as will unfortunately be the case for my grandparents. We won’t be having them round even if we are ‘allowed to’. 

Language as above is only going to create a bigger divide, if you stop people from having the opportunity to self assess and make their own calculated decisions. 

This is all making the assumption everyone is as sensible as you. They are far from it, as shown by Manchester and Liverpool's numbers while under restrictions. And most of the country thinks "allowed" means "fine", because the level of education in large parts of this country is deliberately kept low. 

We'll get weeks more of actual livelihood destroying lockdown that is unnecessary because of christmas affecting the decisions about about coming out of lockdown. We might even see these genuinely overwhelmed hospitals for the first time as we hit winter peak and add this extra pressure on..

There's nothing to be done, all of this is guaranteed now. But some leadership from the decision makers showing people what the stakes are might help push more towards sensible decision making, not  "saving Christmas" narrative 

Edited November 19, 2020 by efcfanwirral

[xxialac]

1 minute ago, fraybentos1 said:

Don't think me having a small family gathering is going to do much to contribute and I'm certainly not spending xmas alone- thanks for your concern though.

"Don't think me having a small family gathering is going to do much to contribute"

I disagree.  Try multiplying that by 20 million small family gatherings and think of the effect.

It's the same mentality as 'it's ok to swipe something small from a big business, it won't affect their profits'.

[mcshed]

10 minutes ago, alanr said:

Many (myself included) would argue that christmas ceased to be a religious festive many years ago, and is now a 100% commercial event

Whilst I agree that it has ceased to be a religious festival, I'd argue that it is important socially and culturally in the UK and that is why there is an attempt to make an exception of it.

If these considerations where commercial there would be more pressure to have the shops open now when it's Christmas shopping time than ease things on the actual day when it is mostly about seeing relatives.

[steviewevie]

just postpone xmas to May...simple. They should put me in charge.

[stuartbert two hats]

1 minute ago, mattiloy said:

Zionism isn’t judaism. Its fair to criticise Zionism. Its weird in the modern secular age for reasonable people to say ’Yeah i agree, because this old book which also glorifies violent wars against non-jews, homophobia, misogyny etc, says so, You should own this land.

For the other one, Corbyn acknowledged his mistake and made a statement about it at the time. It also is clear for me that his intentions in liking/commenting were support for anticapitalism, the main theme of the piece, not antisemitism.

I’m with @eFestivalsthough, whatever was wrong with the balfour declaration and everything that came afterwards- those people whose grandparents emigrated to israel are there now through no fault of their own and it would be equally wrong to confiscate their land back. A pragmatic two state solution is the only solution but sadly it seems from the progress in the last decades like that isn’t enough for the powerful religious hardliners.

And i also agree that there are extreme elements of the left that sadly exhibit antisemitism but that this is far from the norm in the labour party, it is a tiny fraction, and JC is not responsible for their views.

Those on the left who oppose Zionism have utterly failed to make the case and to distinguish between antisemitism and antizionism.  Personally, I think that's lost and the best thing Labour can do to further its aims is to fully admit whatever claims are being made whether or not they're justified and just move the fuck on.

I kind of agree with Corbyn that this subject has been weaponised against him, but he's a complete idiot for saying so in public.  It's incredibly antagonising to the Jewish community and those in his party trying to move on. Just shut it Jezza, it doesn't matter if he's a little bit right, to say so is to keep digging when in a massive hole.