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When will this shit end?


Chrisp1986

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3 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

who knew that no politician was perfect? 

Meanwhile where are the electorate's views? Do they want Corbynism, or don't they?

Polling on issues, separated from associations with parties, shows that the majority of people do like leftwing economic policies, they want to nationalise rails, stop NHS privatisation etc.

Areas like foreign policy and defence they are less aligned - Palestine, trident etc. But Corbyn did not pursue these things and trident renewal was the official policy left on the manifesto.

Corbyn was rumbled because of brexit and because of the media, not on policy.

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1 minute ago, mattiloy said:

Polling on issues, separated from associations with parties, shows that the majority of people do like leftwing economic policies, they want to nationalise rails, stop NHS privatisation etc.

Areas like foreign policy and defence they are less aligned - Palestine, trident etc. But Corbyn did not pursue these things and trident renewal was the official policy left on the manifesto.

Corbyn was rumbled because of brexit and because of the media, not on policy.

Corbyn being very unpopular didn't exactly help either.

But, that was medias fault, and centrists, and remainers, and Starmer etc etc forever.

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Just now, DickButkis said:

They want whatever the right-wing media tell them they want.

or just perhaps, they have their own minds just like you and think what you want is a crock of shit...? 

You (and I) can think they're wrong all we like, but that doesn't win elections and actually make people's lives better.

There's fuck all point complaining that it's the wrong electorate, it's the only electorate the Labour Party has got to work with.

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3 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

Corbyn being very unpopular didn't exactly help either.

But, that was medias fault, and centrists, and remainers, and Starmer etc etc forever.

Why do you think he was unpopular? What do you think it is about him that is dislikeable?

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2 minutes ago, mattiloy said:

Polling on issues, separated from associations with parties, shows that the majority of people do like leftwing economic policies, they want to nationalise rails, stop NHS privatisation etc.

Yep, people like wishlists.

Politics happens in the real world and is the art of the possible, and not how big you can dream (and dream that all policies work perfectly, too).

 

2 minutes ago, mattiloy said:

Areas like foreign policy and defence they are less aligned - Palestine, trident etc. But Corbyn did not pursue these things and trident renewal was the official policy left on the manifesto.

Corbyn was rumbled because of brexit and because of the media, not on policy.

Corbyn was rumbled because he's Corbyn with 40 years of baggage at odds with mainstream views, and any one of those 'objectionable' views makes him unsupportable by a fragment of the electorate. 

And because his skillset doesn't make him suitable for leadership.

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2 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

or just perhaps, they have their own minds just like you and think what you want is a crock of shit...? 

You (and I) can think they're wrong all we like, but that doesn't win elections and actually make people's lives better.

There's fuck all point complaining that it's the wrong electorate, it's the only electorate the Labour Party has got to work with.

Obviously that was a broad statement and there are a lot of people who are clued up and know exactly what they want from a party and policies that suit them. But when you see people vote for parties which have policies that are actively against their interests and livelihood, you know there is something wrong with the way things are portrayed. I'm not saying the electorate is wrong, I'm saying that big parts of the media are corrupt and biased. More casual voters, who only really see headlines and odd news snippets, can be easily swayed by what is put in front of them without full knowledge of how things can benefit or hinder them.

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Just now, mattiloy said:

Why do you think he was unpopular? What do you think it is about him that is dislikeable?

For example:

For a large proportion of those who lived through those times, his association with the IRA at the height of the troubles.  Like it or not, those actions were regarded as traitorous.

That's just one of many things which for some made him unsupportable.

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1 minute ago, steviewevie said:

His antisemitism?

Is he antisemitic? And if so is he more antisemitic than Boris is islamophobic?

He isn’t but even if he were, then it would seem that racism is not a great obstacle to popularity. Unless Joe public cares much more about antisemitism than islamophobia? And then why would that be the case?

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Just now, squirrelarmy said:

Here’s another way of thinking. 
 

If it had been Starmer vs May in the election rather than Corbyn vs May, would we be having this conversation about how do we get the Tories out of power? 

Yes because Starmer would have fought that election on a second vote platform and lost.

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2 minutes ago, squirrelarmy said:

Here’s another way of thinking. 
 

If it had been Starmer vs May in the election rather than Corbyn vs May, would we be having this conversation about how do we get the Tories out of power? 

I think the result of the election would’ve been different in that case.

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1 minute ago, DickButkis said:

But when you see people vote for parties which have policies that are actively against their interests and livelihood, you know there is something wrong with the way things are portrayed.

Hmmm. That's my own take on it too, and yet I can also see how arrogant that is.

Those people have different priorities than you're assuming for them, which leads them to their different conclusions. 

And ultimately in a democracy they're as entitled to their views as you and I am to ours.

That's the electorate political parties have to work with.

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3 minutes ago, mattiloy said:

Yes because Starmer would have fought that election on a second vote platform and lost.

 

3 minutes ago, DickButkis said:

Yes

Yougov in 2017 disagrees. Corbyns unpopularity was the deciding factor. 
 

A more palatable Labour leader would have attracted more votes. 
 

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2017/04/26/corbyn-favourability-remains-rock-bottom-ahead-gen

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Just now, eFestivals said:

Hmmm. That's my own take on it too, and yet I can also see how arrogant that is.

Those people have different priorities than you're assuming for them, which leads them to their different conclusions. 

And ultimately in a democracy they're as entitled to their views as you and I am to ours.

That's the electorate political parties have to work with.

Although our electoral system means that the majority didn’t actually vote for the Tories in the last election so whilst you are right it doesn’t give us a true democratic outcome. 
 

1 minute ago, squirrelarmy said:

 

Yougov in 2017 disagrees. Corbyns unpopularity was the deciding factor. 
 

A more palatable Labour leader would have attracted more votes. 
 

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2017/04/26/corbyn-favourability-remains-rock-bottom-ahead-gen

Yeah I agree. If as in your example Starmer had been in charge in 2017, it’s very possible we could’ve had a Labour government given how bad May was in the campaign. 

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5 minutes ago, squirrelarmy said:

 

Yougov in 2017 disagrees. Corbyns unpopularity was the deciding factor. 
 

A more palatable Labour leader would have attracted more votes. 
 

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2017/04/26/corbyn-favourability-remains-rock-bottom-ahead-gen

One of the reasons labour got the votes they did in 2017 was because Labour campaigners were saying Corbyn wouldn't win so it was safe to vote Labour. :P 

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Just now, Ozanne said:

Although our electoral system means that the majority didn’t actually vote for the Tories in the last election so whilst you are right it doesn’t give us a true democratic outcome. 

much like with the electorate, Labour only have the existing electoral system to work with.

If they want to change it (and it still doesn't look like they do) then they still have to first win via FPTP.

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5 minutes ago, squirrelarmy said:

 

Yougov in 2017 disagrees. Corbyns unpopularity was the deciding factor. 
 

A more palatable Labour leader would have attracted more votes. 
 

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2017/04/26/corbyn-favourability-remains-rock-bottom-ahead-gen

https://www.google.se/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/amp/uk-politics-40630242
 

Brexit was the main issue 

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3 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

much like with the electorate, Labour only have the existing electoral system to work with.

If they want to change it (and it still doesn't look like they do) then they still have to first win via FPTP.

This might not mean much but Starmer has expressed interested in electoral reform so it could be a possibility. You are right though Labour have to win under FPTP first though!

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