When will this shit end?

[mattiloy]

Everybody has their bias. A fair number of people on here are a little centrist dad ish and nothing wrong with it, the older you get and more institutionalised you get the more insecure you become about change. Its as much a threat as an opportunity even if needed. You are comfortable and you owe it at least in part to the inherent disequilibrium in the system. Me too. If the borders were opened completely there is probably a line of indian phd students who could happily do my job cheaper, better and more enthusiastically than me. But I’m not afraid of the challenge. I back myself to adapt to whatever new world awaits. Maybe I will feel differently when I’m older and more tired.

But your bias also informs your take on Corbyn. I know that there are a lot of pro Corbyn voters, particularly youngsters, who will viscerally feel this injustice and Will be switched off from now - either disengaged completely or will defect. Whether This is ameliorated by the gains in the centre remains to be seen. Time will tell.

[Ozanne]

Another poll showing Labour gains up till 28th Oct. 

[Mark E. Spliff]

I'm going to leave it here, but I'd encourage anyone who's interested in the Labour antisemitism scandal to go back a couple of pages and read through - you might see my point.  I asked for actual examples of labour activists making antisemitic statements.  This was your chance to provide evidence to me that it's a genuine issue.  The responses I got were as follows:

• mcshed: some examples of genuinely antisemitic statements.  However, these are just attributed to 'social media.'  Go and look at the comments in your local news website, and you'll see the problem with trying to hold an organisation to account for what anonymous people write on the internet.
• steviewevie: more hearsay.  No examples
• Squirrelarmy: Alludes to reports of antisemitism but no examples.  (He also puts the boot into Corbyn - I do too, but not for a manufactured scandal.  My problem with Corbyn is simply that he was crap and left this country at the mercy of the Brexit wolves stirring up right-wing fervour amongst the masses so they can line their pockets.)
• Fred Quimby: 'The left have had an antisemitism problem for thousands of years.'  Baffling.  The Romans only kicked the Jews out of Jerusalem 2000 years ago.  Since then, antisemitism was rife in Europe, but I'm not sure what the proto-Left groups (the diggers?  The Tolpuddle Martyrs?) have done to single them out as antisemitic.  More recent left wing luminaries like Karl Marx and Noam Chomsky haven't been particularly associated with antisemitism...

I find having this discussion is similar to debating with a Brexit loony.  As soon as you ask the question 'which particular European regulation is going to make your life wonderful when it's repealed?', I get a blank look followed by hostility.

[st dan]

12 minutes ago, mattiloy said:

I know that there are a lot of pro Corbyn voters, particularly youngsters, who will viscerally feel this injustice and Will be switched off from now - either disengaged completely or will defect. Whether This is ameliorated by the gains in the centre remains to be seen. Time will tell.

This is a concern I have - as we geared towards the GE at the back end of last year, it was effectively a PR and marketing campaign putting Corbyn right at the front and centre of the youth movement. And there is no denying it worked (to an extent). Labour absolutely smashed the 18-24 voting demographic. 

They need to carry this on if possible to make sure the hard work is not lost, whilst not alienating the more ‘middle aged’ and elder Labour supporters - just not sure I can see Kier having a cup of tea with Stormzy, or have 50,000+ chanting his name at Glastonbury, or in the queues outside nightclubs etc. 
Quite possible that they could find themselves in some murky middle ground.

The main thing going for them right now is how spectacularly the Tories are ballsing everything up on their own accord, Labour could win the next election by default at this rate. 

Edited October 30, 2020 by st dan

[Fuzzy Afro]

1 minute ago, st dan said:

This is a concern I have - as we geared towards the GE at the back end of last year, it was effectively a PR and marketing campaign putting Corbyn right at the front and centre of the youth movement. And there is no denying it worked (to an extent). Labour absolutely smashed the 18-24 voting demographic. 

They need to carry this on if possible to make sure the hard work is not lost, whilst not alienating the more ‘middle aged’ and elder Labour supporters - just not sure I can see Kier having a cup of tea with Stormzy, or have 50,000+ changing his name at Glastonbury or in the queues outside nightclubs etc. 

Quite possible that they find themselves in some murky middle ground. The main thing going for them right now is how spectacularly the Tories are ballsing everything up on their own accord, they could win the next election by default at this rate. 

None of this matters. All these student voters are in seats where they WEIGH the Labour majority. 

[st dan]

1 minute ago, Fuzzy Afro said:

None of this matters. All these student voters are in seats where they WEIGH the Labour majority. 

The ‘youth’ demographic is much wider than just the student population within the major cities - there was a big shift towards Labour in the votes of 18-24 year olds across the country, even in the Tory heartlands.  

[fraybentos1]

6 minutes ago, st dan said:

just not sure I can see Kier having a cup of tea with Stormzy, or have 50,000+ chanting his name at Glastonbury, or in the queues outside nightclubs etc. 

In all honesty, who gives a fuck? Glasto and this board don't exactly have their finger at the pulse of the wider electorate. 

This isn't rocket science. Labour need to appeal to former Tory voters to win, not appeal more to their echo chamber which isn't big enough to win elections and, you know, actually govern and make changes.

[Fuzzy Afro]

ONS estimate 1% of England have covid, 52k infections per day. Scarily 1-in-45 people in the North West have coronavirus. 

[fraybentos1]

1 minute ago, st dan said:

there was a big shift towards Labour in the votes of 18-24 year olds across the country, even in the Tory heartlands.  

Again, who cares? It means fuck all picking up a large portion of the youth vote in seats the Tories are gonna win anyway or bolstering their support to like 80% in Hackney and Islington.

[zahidf]

Interesting...

 

[zahidf]

 

[RobertProsineckisLighter]

37 minutes ago, fraybentos1 said:

In all honesty, who gives a fuck? Glasto and this board don't exactly have their finger at the pulse of the wider electorate. 

This isn't rocket science. Labour need to appeal to former Tory voters to win, not appeal more to their echo chamber which isn't big enough to win elections and, you know, actually govern and make changes.

If you took Brexit off the table the red wall would still be red because the thought of voting Tory repulses many folk in these areas. 

For masses of voters the last general election was effectively a verification for getting Brexit done and back to the status quo afterwards (granted they believe their lives are going to improve post Brexit but give it a few months and they will be back to hating Tories)

Edited October 30, 2020 by RobertProsineckisLighter

[steviewevie]

45 minutes ago, Mark E. Spliff said:

I'm going to leave it here, but I'd encourage anyone who's interested in the Labour antisemitism scandal to go back a couple of pages and read through - you might see my point.  I asked for actual examples of labour activists making antisemitic statements.  This was your chance to provide evidence to me that it's a genuine issue.  The responses I got were as follows:

• mcshed: some examples of genuinely antisemitic statements.  However, these are just attributed to 'social media.'  Go and look at the comments in your local news website, and you'll see the problem with trying to hold an organisation to account for what anonymous people write on the internet.
• steviewevie: more hearsay.  No examples
• Squirrelarmy: Alludes to reports of antisemitism but no examples.  (He also puts the boot into Corbyn - I do too, but not for a manufactured scandal.  My problem with Corbyn is simply that he was crap and left this country at the mercy of the Brexit wolves stirring up right-wing fervour amongst the masses so they can line their pockets.)
• Fred Quimby: 'The left have had an antisemitism problem for thousands of years.'  Baffling.  The Romans only kicked the Jews out of Jerusalem 2000 years ago.  Since then, antisemitism was rife in Europe, but I'm not sure what the proto-Left groups (the diggers?  The Tolpuddle Martyrs?) have done to single them out as antisemitic.  More recent left wing luminaries like Karl Marx and Noam Chomsky haven't been particularly associated with antisemitism...

I find having this discussion is similar to debating with a Brexit loony.  As soon as you ask the question 'which particular European regulation is going to make your life wonderful when it's repealed?', I get a blank look followed by hostility.

The comments aren't necessarily public, but they have been seen by EHRC, and by labour party leadership. I mean, you can just not trust the EHRC if you want...

https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/our-work/news/investigation-antisemitism-labour-party-finds-unlawful-acts-discrimination-and

[steviewevie]

Just now, RobertProsineckisLighter said:

If you took Brexit off the table the red wall would still be red. For masses of voters the last general election was effectively a verification for getting Brexit done. 

not sure was just brexit...there were lots of people moaning about Corbyn to those having to campaign for labour in those areas...the ira links, stuff like that.

[steviewevie]

34 minutes ago, zahidf said:

Interesting...

 

get it out there...quick...

[Matt42]

1 hour ago, Mark E. Spliff said:

That's not an example - it's another article, albeit on Wikipedia.  As I said, I've read lots of articles but I have yet to see any examples of antisemitic statements by Labour activists.  All I'm asking is for someone to provide me with some.

The ratio of outrage to evidence isn't looking good here.

You’re kinda doing exactly what Jeremy corbyn is doing bud.

Ok that’s not evidence show me real evidence, show me real evidence.

It infers that you think its a grand Jewish conspiracy 

[mcshed]

38 minutes ago, Mark E. Spliff said:

I'm going to leave it here, but I'd encourage anyone who's interested in the Labour antisemitism scandal to go back a couple of pages and read through - you might see my point.  I asked for actual examples of labour activists making antisemitic statements.  This was your chance to provide evidence to me that it's a genuine issue.  The responses I got were as follows:

• mcshed: some examples of genuinely antisemitic statements.  However, these are just attributed to 'social media.'  Go and look at the comments in your local news website, and you'll see the problem with trying to hold an organisation to account for what anonymous people write on the internet.
• steviewevie: more hearsay.  No examples
• Squirrelarmy: Alludes to reports of antisemitism but no examples.  (He also puts the boot into Corbyn - I do too, but not for a manufactured scandal.  My problem with Corbyn is simply that he was crap and left this country at the mercy of the Brexit wolves stirring up right-wing fervour amongst the masses so they can line their pockets.)
• Fred Quimby: 'The left have had an antisemitism problem for thousands of years.'  Baffling.  The Romans only kicked the Jews out of Jerusalem 2000 years ago.  Since then, antisemitism was rife in Europe, but I'm not sure what the proto-Left groups (the diggers?  The Tolpuddle Martyrs?) have done to single them out as antisemitic.  More recent left wing luminaries like Karl Marx and Noam Chomsky haven't been particularly associated with antisemitism...

I find having this discussion is similar to debating with a Brexit loony.  As soon as you ask the question 'which particular European regulation is going to make your life wonderful when it's repealed?', I get a blank look followed by hostility.

I don't think there is or was a huge amount of antisemitism in the Labour party but I think if the EHRC thinks there is an issue then it should be taken seriously, what I cited was taken from their report. 

As I was explaining earlier even if people are making a bigger deal out of something than is strictly proportionate you undermine your own response to the real underlying problem no matter how small by focusing on the exaggeration.

[Spindles]

4 minutes ago, Matt42 said:

It infers that you think its a grand Jewish conspiracy 

Don't talk soft lad.

Asking for evidence to support an argument is not evidence of whatever view you chose to then ascribe.  I think Mr Spliff has made his points well and to then try and paint a caricature image of what you believe he stands for rather than refute any point made sort of makes his point for him, I feel.

[Matt42]

4 minutes ago, Spindles said:

Don't talk soft lad.

Asking for evidence to support an argument is not evidence of whatever view you chose to then ascribe.  I think Mr Spliff has made his points well and to then try and paint a caricature image of what you believe he stands for rather than refute any point made sort of makes his point for him, I feel.

But if people are coming forward and reporting a problem and have been reporting a problem for some time. RLB was sacked for literally the same thing.

If you’re looking at all this and not spotting the issue - then it sounds like you’re upholding the fortress that Corbyn and his team built in the party.

This constant insistence that there is no problem is part of the problem.

Edited October 30, 2020 by Matt42

[Lycra]

6 minutes ago, RobertProsineckisLighter said:

If you took Brexit off the table the red wall would still be red because the thought of voting Tory repulses many folk in these areas. 

For masses of voters the last general election was effectively a verification for getting Brexit done and back to the status quo afterwards (granted they believe their lives are going to improve post Brexit but give it a few months and they will be back to hating Tories)

Labour was rejected because it lost connect with the voters. Very many, my leftist parents included, were put off specifcally by Corbyn. This was reinforced by idealistic policies which gave no prospect of improving their lives.

ps     My friend worked for a then  sitting red wall MP and told me on numerous occasions of the wholesale hostility to Corbyn he personally received when doorstep canvassing.

[Spindles]

If that is how it sounds to you than I can only say that I'm sorry this is the conclusion that you've drawn.  The same evidence is available to all of us after all.  If you look at my posts I think I've made my position fairly clear.

[Mark E. Spliff]

14 minutes ago, Matt42 said:

You’re kinda doing exactly what Jeremy corbyn is doing bud.

Ok that’s not evidence show me real evidence, show me real evidence.

It infers that you think its a grand Jewish conspiracy 

The people who deny the holocaust or believe in daft Jewish conspiracy theories or Bill Gates trying to take over the world wouldn't openly ask for evidence outside their various social media echo-chambers.  If they did, they'd be deluged with it.  If you want to deluge me with evidence - I'm waiting.

As for the EHRC.  That's exactly what I'm talking about: I've read the articles and discussions, but I've not actually seen a shred of evidence.  I still haven't despite you guys having had 3 pages to come up with some.  It's not that difficult - just go and do some Googling and come back with something that isn't hearsay etc.  I've already tried.

For anyone wondering where I'm coming from on this issue: I'm opposed to the aggressive right-wing politics of the zealot settler movement and the brutal war-crimes committed by the IDF.  I want the left wing to be able to shout loudly about these things, the same as we shout about the disgusting behaviour of the Saudi state, without being accused of antisemitism.  The fact that these things are now being equated with antisemitism (and the fact that Corbyn folded over this issue rather than taking a lead on it while he was leader) means the far-right have scored a total victory over the left without a fight.

Edited October 30, 2020 by Mark E. Spliff
Typo

[steviewevie]

 

[Mark E. Spliff]

(Duplicate post)

Edited October 30, 2020 by Mark E. Spliff

[steviewevie]

7 minutes ago, Mark E. Spliff said:

The people who deny the holocaust or believe in daft Jewish conspiracy theories or Bill Gates trying to take over the world wouldn't openly ask for evidence outside their various social media echo-chambers.  If they did, they'd be deluged with it.  If you want to deluge me with evidence - I'm waiting.

As for the EHRC.  That's exactly what I'm talking about: I've read the articles and discussions, but I've not actually seen a shred of evidence.  I still haven't despite having given you guys having had 3 pages to come up with some.  It's not that difficult - just go and do some Googling and come back with something that isn't hearsay etc.  I've already tried.

For anyone wondering where I'm coming from on this issue: I'm opposed to the aggressive right-wing politics of the zealot settler movement and the brutal war-crimes committed by the IDF.  I want the left wing to be able to shout loudly about these things, the same as we shout about the disgusting behaviour of the Saudi state, without being accused of antisemitism.  The fact that these things are now being equated with antisemitism (and the fact that Corbyn folded over this issue rather than taking a lead on it while he was leader) means the far-right have scored a total victory over the left without a fight.

Maybe you should ask the jewish mps and members who have been getting the abuse.