When will this shit end?

[st dan]

1 minute ago, Fuzzy Afro said:

Exactly. I don’t want to hear anyone else suggesting that cancer treatment is anything other than an emergency scenario. 

You do realise that cancer, Covid and a whole host of other health issues are classed as emergency scenarios - they’re not mutually exclusive. 
Cancer treatment should not have been ignored, but that doesn’t mean they should have stopped treating Covid patients either. That’s not how our health system is set up to work. 

[ace56blaa]

1 minute ago, Fuzzy Afro said:

Chemotherapy is an immunosuppressant I believe so it would make you very vulnerable for covid but also sitting at home without treatment WILL kill you. Keeping the treatment going and hopefully not catching covid is still the better option. 

Well I guess with the first lockdown, there weren't expecting the cancer treatment delays to be that long, But then covid ran rampant for far longer than expected.

But we locked down and the cases went down and treatments started to resume.

The only reason they are being cancelled again is because we lets the virus run rampant again. It sucks that we even have to be discussing this, when if the government did a circuit breaker or tightened restrictions, then hospitals may not be at capacity now. 

 

[Ozanne]

Just now, st dan said:

You do realise that cancer, Covid and a whole host of other health issues are classed as emergency scenarios - they’re not mutually exclusive. 
Cancer treatment should not have been ignored, but that doesn’t mean they should have stopped treating Covid patients either. That’s not how our health system is set up to work. 

We are also a civilised society, 5th richest country in the world we should be have to decide who gets treatment based on their age. The elderly deserve respect and treatment too. 

[Fuzzy Afro]

1 minute ago, ace56blaa said:

Well I guess with the first lockdown, there weren't expecting the cancer treatment delays to be that long, But then covid ran rampant for far longer than expected.

But we locked down and the cases went down and treatments started to resume.

The only reason they are being cancelled again is because we lets the virus run rampant again. It sucks that we even have to be discussing this, when if the government did a circuit breaker or tightened restrictions, then hospitals may not be at capacity now. 

 

 

1 minute ago, Ozanne said:

We are also a civilised society, 5th richest country in the world we should be have to decide who gets treatment based on their age. The elderly deserve respect and treatment too. 

We can all agree that it’s wrong that such decisions are having to be made (I hold my hand up, I fucked up. I didn’t think we’d have a second wave and thought it was all over. I was wrong and I can admit that), but given that they do have to be made I think it’s really fucked up that the young are being left to die just to buy the elderly a bit of extra time. 

[steviewevie]

1 minute ago, Fuzzy Afro said:

 

We can all agree that it’s wrong that such decisions are having to be made (I hold my hand up, I fucked up. I didn’t think we’d have a second wave and thought it was all over. I was wrong and I can admit that), but given that they do have to be made I think it’s really fucked up that the young are being left to die just to buy the elderly a bit of extra time. 

I think they are really trying not to do that.

[Fuzzy Afro]

Just now, steviewevie said:

I think they are really trying not to do that.

They’re not. Hancock was a step short of gleefully boasting about stopping cancer treatment a week or two ago. 

[steviewevie]

Covid hospital cases in UK ‘could pass spring peak in November’

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/oct/28/covid-hospital-cases-in-uk-could-pass-spring-peak-in-november

[foolee]

On the cancer situation - It's not just people that have had cancer diagnosed it's also the people that for example have a lump or have the early signs but are too afraid to attend the doctors due to covid/the news/scaremongering or think it's not important and can wait. So many people will have early stages of cancer that are treatable but because of covid it'll be too late. 

Edited October 28, 2020 by foolee

[steviewevie]

1 minute ago, Fuzzy Afro said:

They’re not. Hancock was a step short of gleefully boasting about stopping cancer treatment a week or two ago. 

Ok, well he's a twat for saying that...he was probably trying to push for more restrictions or lockdown or scaring the public into better compliance or something...

As Ozanne said this country should be able to treat both cancer patients and covid patients, we are a wealthy country. To not be prepared for this 2nd wave is unforgivable actually.

[Crazyfool01]

2 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

Covid hospital cases in UK ‘could pass spring peak in November’

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/oct/28/covid-hospital-cases-in-uk-could-pass-spring-peak-in-november

surely that would mean  that daily infections would be at 100,000 or more in october ? because thats what they were predicted to be at around when we locked down initially ....... so we either have quite a bit of growth in numbers still to happen ? or we are still missing a shed load ...

[ace56blaa]

2 minutes ago, Fuzzy Afro said:

 

We can all agree that it’s wrong that such decisions are having to be made (I hold my hand up, I fucked up. I didn’t think we’d have a second wave and thought it was all over. I was wrong and I can admit that), but given that they do have to be made I think it’s really fucked up that the young are being left to die just to buy the elderly a bit of extra time. 

Thank god you're not making the decisions. 

It's about risk and reducing the amount of unnecessary deaths. Even if you say, turn away elderly people with covid at the door, because that's what you'd have to do, as they aren't appointment based like cancer treatments. The more prevalent covid is in an area the more likely it's be running rampant in a hospital. So now, you are basically turning away covid patients with an issue that could kill them, as well as putting any cancer patient's life at risk from covid as well as cancer. 

The rationale for blocking cancer treatments, is the protect the cancer patient as much or more-so than just combat capacity. 

[Havors]

18 minutes ago, efcfanwirral said:

I think the firebreak/circuit break type lockdowns sound like the most sensible idea - if schools aren't the problem then locking down everything but them for a short period every now and then (financially supported of course) makes more sense than letting it run and having to lock down for longer. Surely financially too?

But because Labour suggested it, it won't happen. Politics getting in the way of what's needed 

Well we now have Wales as a live experiment to see what it does... 

[Fuzzy Afro]

So now we have

 

Tier 1

Tier 1+
Tier 2

Tier 3

Tier 3 with additional restrictions

Minister’s discussing tier 4.

The new “simplified” system is turning into a farce. I think there’s a case made to just have two levels.

 

Level 1: Rule of 6, social distancing, 10pm curfew etc

Level 2: Full lockdown and stay at home order

 

Feels like all the interim steps just fuck over the economy and mental health without really suppressing the virus 

[st dan]

1 minute ago, foolee said:

On the cancer situation - It's not just people that have had cancer diagnosed it's also the people that for example have a lump or have the early signs but are too afraid to attend the doctors due to covid/the news/scaremongering or think it's not important and can wait. So many people will have early stages of cancer that are treatable but because of covid it'll be too late. 

That is an issue - but more to do with people’s mindset though rather than an issue as to how cancer treatment is being handled.

If anybody finds a suspicious lump, they can and should contact their GP right away to get it assessed properly. They aren’t ignoring or bypassing things like this because of Covid at all. 

[Havors]

1 minute ago, ace56blaa said:

The rationale for blocking cancer treatments, is the protect the cancer patient as much or more-so than just combat capacity. 

That was the original premise for cancelling... it now turns out that wasnt a good idea. They really dont want to be doing that again and I dont think they will. 

[steviewevie]

Found this on lancet about covid 2nd wave and cancer treatments....

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanonc/article/PIIS1470-2045(20)30638-0/fulltext?rss=yes

also...I feel I may have been a bit out of order and just basically wrong on some of the stuff I've been arguing about regarding this cancer vs covid thing...sorry if I offended anyone. The whole thing is so grim.

[steviewevie]

This sounds like a good idea...for those in EU...

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/oct/28/eu-leaders-urged-to-work-together-as-covid-cases-rise-in-all-member-states

[ace56blaa]

1 minute ago, Havors said:

That was the original premise for cancelling... it now turns out that wasnt a good idea. They really dont want to be doing that again and I dont think they will. 

I mean again as many pointed out the best idea would to be locking down about a month ago so this wouldn't happen. 

Didn't help the amount of people saying lockdown is the reason cancer treatments are being delayed, so many people would use cancer treatments as a reason to not lockdown, when it is one of the most compelling cases for why we do need to lockdown or circuit break

[Fuzzy Afro]

2 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

Found this on lancet about covid 2nd wave and cancer treatments....

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanonc/article/PIIS1470-2045(20)30638-0/fulltext?rss=yes

also...I feel I may have been a bit out of order and just basically wrong on some of the stuff I've been arguing about regarding this cancer vs covid thing...sorry if I offended anyone. The whole thing is so grim.

Don’t think you’ve said anything out of order mate  

1 minute ago, ace56blaa said:

I mean again as many pointed out the best idea would to be locking down about a month ago so this wouldn't happen. 

Didn't help the amount of people saying lockdown is the reason cancer treatments are being delayed, so many people would use cancer treatments as a reason to not lockdown, when it is one of the most compelling cases for why we do need to lockdown or circuit break

Spot on. 

[foolee]

1 minute ago, st dan said:

That is an issue - but more to do with people’s mindset though rather than an issue as to how cancer treatment is being handled.

If anybody finds a suspicious lump, they can and should contact their GP right away to get it assessed properly. They aren’t ignoring or bypassing things like this because of Covid at all. 

This mindset is due to the news/social media and this is the mindset that a lot of people have and it is worrying. I think since March it has been reported that cancer deaths and/or patients have dropped dramatically but it hasn't gone away, think the government could do with having a campaign to remind people that cancer kills and to check for lumps because people just weren't/aren't doing so. Obviously covid is really bad and it is spreading still but covid is the thing that is surrounding us all right now as it's on tv, we need to think about if we're following the correct rules and we talk about it with friends/family etc. but people need to keep in mind that it isn't the only killer and we need to keep vigilant. 

[Quark]

37 minutes ago, Fuzzy Afro said:

If you’ve been to that many, why would you be downplaying it’s seriousness? 

And breathe.

I'm not downplaying seriousness at all.  At all.  What I'm referencing is the difference between emergency care, where something requires immediate treatment as a result of something happening then and there, and a longer term care plan such as cancer.

That's in no way a commentary or opinion on which is more or less serious, and as you may have guessed I find it incredibly offensive and upsetting to suggest that I view cancer as not serious. Please don't do that again.

The NHS care model for the two things, as I understand it, is to treat as a priority those things that pose immediate risk to life.  So if someone with covid is at the point of either receiving hospital treatment or dying, then you would be looking at a fundamental change in the way it operates to say "no, we will turn away this person that needs treatment right now so that we can maintain the planned structure of longer term treatments".

We are all seeing the knock on impacts of that. Clearly some people already have, many more will, and a lot of people are in fear for themselves and those around them that they'll find themselves on the wrong end of that decision process. Whether or not the NHS and government decide that a balance will need to be struck remains to be seen, but we've already seen the effects in care homes of what happens when people with covid aren't treated in hospital.

One way or another, from covid, cancer or other health conditions, we are going to see deaths.  Some will be immediate, some will be longer term.  And there really isn't a single right or wrong answer for how we decide who lives and who dies.

Edited October 28, 2020 by Quark

[Quark]

36 minutes ago, Havors said:

Tell that to my friends wife that died. 

Sorry to hear that pal.

[Zoo Music Girl]

I've mentioned this many times before, but we have two people in our lives currently undergoing cancer treatment so they are not turning away patients from all areas yet. I'm pretty sure they kept up with things like chemo in the first wave. My friend, who is under 40, is undergoing it now and it's very scary for all of us. I never think they should just not treat covid patients though, that's insanely cruel and heartless. I just think we should do what we can to keep the numbers down to make hospitals safer for cancer patients and other patients with serious conditions, and also to keep up routine treatment. My friend has already been hospitalised with a stomach bug because of the effects of chemo on her immune system. I dread to think what would happen if she got covid. The other person in our lives is thankfully undergoing private treatment at home - I say thankful as he is over 70 and am pleased he can stay away from hospitals.

On the flipside, my mother in law (essentially, not married) got diagnosed with cancer during the first wave. They decided in her case to delay treatment to avoid her getting exposed to covid. In her situation it was the right one as she had the op during the summer and is now fine. So sometimes delaying treatment isn't the worst thing in the world.

Sometimes it is of course. My best friend died of cancer in 2018 due in part to delays in diagnosis and treatment. This doesn't just happen due to covid.

Covid is serious. Cancer is serious. Unfortunately we have to try to navigate a situation where we treat both but it's not simple, it's not about just letting all the old people die as some seem so delighted to do and there is no perfect solution.

Like @Quark I've had my fair share of people I love having cancer and it is pretty upsetting seeing this argument thrown around all the time, the idea that caring about covid means you couldn't give a fuck about cancer. This argument has gone round about 10 times in this thread now too, so is getting old.

[Spindles]

With the confusion of the tier 1+ muddying the waters of the covid rating system I propose a more appropriate scale of measurement.

[Zoo Music Girl]

2 minutes ago, Spindles said:

With the confusion of the tier 1+ muddying the waters of the covid rating system I propose a more appropriate scale of measurement.

Thanks for lightening the mood!