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When will this shit end?


Chrisp1986

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2 minutes ago, Ozanne said:

Yeah it's pointless to pick a date, as any date wouldn't be based on any real evidence of anything and would be completely arbitrary. Then what happens if we get a setback and can't get 'back to normal' by that date. It's a redundant idea.

The idea would be that we put a maximum date on restrictions. If no vaccine by then, scrap them anyway and let everyone get on with their lives 

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36 minutes ago, Fuzzy Afro said:

Sweden has lived with it since day 1. More deaths and less economic damage, but crucially they aren’t stuck in purgatory waiting for a vaccine. 

You are also wrong. Sweden has hasn't had more COVID deaths and has actually had one of the worst economic hits too

32 minutes ago, Fuzzy Afro said:

The idea would be that we put a maximum date on restrictions. If no vaccine by then, scrap them anyway and let everyone get on with their lives 

lol. Do you really think they would say 1st May and instantly just remove all restrictions, allow large gatherings and indoor events etc to go ahead just like that? Just think about that for a moment before you post.

Also people can get on with their lives now, in just a different kind of way for a little bit.

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28 minutes ago, stuartbert two hats said:

And Sweden has recently resumed exponential growth in cases, currently hospitalisations have only seen a small uptick, but if the case rises continue, then so will the hospitalisations and in time, deaths. It's not over in Sweden.

And they still won’t lockdown surely, which proves that a lockdown isn’t inevitable when you get rising infections. 
 

I’ll commend the swedes for having a compliant population that can voluntarily socially distance tbf. A lot of it comes from the fact that there’s a long history of allowing people to stay at home on full pay when they become sick with an infectious bug 

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8 minutes ago, Fuzzy Afro said:

And they still won’t lockdown surely, which proves that a lockdown isn’t inevitable when you get rising infections. 
 

I’ll commend the swedes for having a compliant population that can voluntarily socially distance tbf. A lot of it comes from the fact that there’s a long history of allowing people to stay at home on full pay when they become sick with an infectious bug 

Ok, so there's some actionable things buried in there. We can learn to live with it. But it involves things like a compliant population and full sick pay. It's not just abandoning all measure at an arbitrary date. Whenever I hear "learn to live with it", including from yourself, it's about what we should not do, when learning is all about actually doing things.

Masks are learning to live with it. Social distancing is learning to live with it. Proper sick pay and a decent track, trace+isolate policy is learning to live with it. Abandoning lockdown is not learning to live with it, abandoning lockdowns is what you do once you've learned to live with it. And how do you know if you've learned to live with it? For me, that would be the R number. Under 1, you've cracked it. Over 1, you've fucked it.

 

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5 minutes ago, stuartbert two hats said:

Ok, so there's some actionable things buried in there. We can learn to live with it. But it involves things like a compliant population and full sick pay. It's not just abandoning all measure at an arbitrary date. Whenever I hear "learn to live with it", including from yourself, it's about what we should not do, when learning is all about actually doing things.

Masks are learning to live with it. Social distancing is learning to live with it. Proper sick pay and a decent track, trace+isolate policy is learning to live with it. Abandoning lockdown is not learning to live with it, abandoning lockdowns is what you do once you've learned to live with it. And how do you know if you've learned to live with it? For me, that would be the R number. Under 1, you've cracked it. Over 1, you've fucked it.

 

Masks I’m a fan of, they’re a good way to safely reopen society. Not sure they’re as significant as some people make them out to be but certainly on public transport they help.

 

R will never be below 1 with any kind of lifestyle worth living until there’s a vaccine. There has to be some way we can accept R being higher than 1. Otherwise we are all just perma-locked away in this life that isn’t enjoyable in the slightest.

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4 minutes ago, Fuzzy Afro said:

Masks I’m a fan of, they’re a good way to safely reopen society. Not sure they’re as significant as some people make them out to be but certainly on public transport they help.

 

R will never be below 1 with any kind of lifestyle worth living until there’s a vaccine. There has to be some way we can accept R being higher than 1. Otherwise we are all just perma-locked away in this life that isn’t enjoyable in the slightest.

I hear you, but I don't think there is. With the R where it is now, the hospitals will fill up and many, many people will die. Manchester is nearly at capacity.

Vaccines are coming, you'll just have to wait.

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1 hour ago, stuartbert two hats said:

And Sweden has recently resumed exponential growth in cases, currently hospitalisations have only seen a small uptick, but if the case rises continue, then so will the hospitalisations and in time, deaths. It's not over in Sweden.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/sweden/

I can't see any exponential growth here, am I missing something?

 

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4 hours ago, steviewevie said:

 

So whats the deal if they do get the 100 million, will the people on 66 percent of their wage get some of it. Or will it just end up going to businesses?

Isn't it gonna end up costing more for the government to bribe every tier 3 place. Why not just improve the financial package?

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6 hours ago, Fuzzy Afro said:

Living with it = Removing all curbs on personal freedom

= massive up tick in cases = large numbers off work due to illness = reduced economic out = reduced social activity = NHS overrun = NHS services in general collapse = more deaths 

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7 hours ago, Fuzzy Afro said:

Sweden has lived with it since day 1. More deaths and less economic damage, but crucially they aren’t stuck in purgatory waiting for a vaccine. 

Less economic damage than who? The Q2 GDP still fell 8% for Sweden. Maybe the UK, but you’ve dealt with things about as bad as any country other than those who have actively ignored it.

 

Let’s see how the economic side of things plays out as countries that have done the work in supressing the virus and implementing systems to keep it that way get the full economic benefit of re-opened internal economies. I’d much rather be in the shoes of NZ, Australia, Singapore, Hong Kong, Taiwan , Japan, South Korea etc  who will reopen with some restrictions in place but without the economic uncertainty and public health problems that high cases and unchecked community transmission bring.

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8 hours ago, Fuzzy Afro said:

And they still won’t lockdown surely, which proves that a lockdown isn’t inevitable when you get rising infections. 
 

I’ll commend the swedes for having a compliant population that can voluntarily socially distance tbf. A lot of it comes from the fact that there’s a long history of allowing people to stay at home on full pay when they become sick with an infectious bug 

They do have some restrictions, and may impose more, but they didn't force any businesses to shut (but did close Unis).

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I think the main thing with Sweden's approach is that it is consistent, they have a set of restrictions and guidance that works for them, and they are not having to do the full lockdown and release thing, but now have a "new normal". Still way too early to see which is best method of dealing with this, probably depends on many factors like population densities and type of governing people are used to. In parts of east asia they are generally more compliant, less bothered about personal liberties etc, so were able to do the mass lockdown and test and trace thing with some success. In Sweden people are more trusting of government and visa versa, they also have a massive welfare state, a lot of people live on their own. Other parts of europe, like UK, are still trying to work out best way to deal with it, and have fared the worst.  But, Sweden did have a lot more deaths than their neighbours in the spring, and their numbers of cases has been increasing through September and October...so they may need more restrictions this winter.

If reports of a vaccine soon are correct, or that we will be able to do better mass testing soon are correct, then maybe best to have these lockdown restrictions either nationally or just locally to stop spread now, pay for it properly and live with the debt, and then hopefully these restrictions can be lifted throughout the year as vaccines and new funky tests become available. Not sure what other choice we have, we are obviously not able to cope with leaving this virus to spread unchecked, hospitals are already filling up in NW and it's still only October.

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