When will this shit end?

[zahidf]

 

 

[Ozanne]

2 minutes ago, zahidf said:

 

 

Good news indeed, but lets er on the side of caution here just in case.

[zahidf]

1 minute ago, Ozanne said:

Good news indeed, but lets er on the side of caution here just in case.

Oh for sure. But fingers crossed!

[Deaf Nobby Burton]

2 minutes ago, Ozanne said:

You brought Boris up, if you don't want to politicise something then don't bring up the bloody Prime Minister.

They aren't mandating face masks that the health service use, they are telling people to buy general masks or coverings. If they did the same back in March with very clear instructions as to what people should go for then it could've worked. I highly doubt the NHS was searching out for 3 ply cotton face masks with the EU stars on the front now. (pointing out again the NHS wouldn't have been in that position desperately searching for facemarks if the government had kept stockpiles high, but we'll forget that).

Lockdown was the main factor, but just because it was the main one doesn't mean we couldn't supplement that with another that can add to the suppression of the virus. 

I clearly read your posts properly, they aren't exactly The Da Vinci Code now. Maybe you should read the Governments guidelines properly so you don't breach them anymore, I quoted your post at the weekend and provided them for you just in case. I hope that was helpful. I hope you abide by the new face masks rules too and don't enter a shop without one just to prove how shopkeepers aren't enforcing the rules.

I'm just pointing out certain areas that could've been done better that others round the world did before us and have been more effective with. You'll push that aside by saying 'hindsight' I'm sure which is doing a great disservice to the NHS workers and also to the families that have suffered losses as thats a way we can move on to the next stage of the fight in the winter by learning from the mistakes of the past.

See my other post about bog roll, hand sanitiser, flour, pasta, soap etc. I really don’t see the point in telling people to wear masks at a point when you don’t have enough masks for your front line medical staff. Why risk their supplies at a point when the majority of the population are at home. It makes zero sense. Of course they wouldn’t be mandating the use of NHS masks but do you honestly think vast proportions of the British public would be worried about that distinction? See above regarding toilet rolls, etc.

The time for masks was when lockdown started to be relaxed and the NHS had enough themselves, that was two months ago. The government from that point onwards have completely fucked up things up as far as the messaging and timing is concerned.

[zahidf]

 

[Crazyfool01]

2 minutes ago, zahidf said:

 

Featuring Bolsonaro as guest speaker ....

[Ozanne]

1 minute ago, Deaf Nobby Burton said:

See my other post about bog roll, hand sanitiser, flour, pasta, soap etc. I really don’t see the point in telling people to wear masks at a point when you don’t have enough masks for your front line medical staff. Why risk their supplies at a point when the majority of the population are at home. It makes zero sense. Of course they wouldn’t be mandating the use of NHS masks but do you honestly think vast proportions of the British public would be worried about that distinction? See above regarding toilet rolls, etc.

The time for masks was when lockdown started to be relaxed and the NHS had enough themselves, that was two months ago. The government from that point onwards have completely fucked up things up as far as the messaging and timing is concerned.

It makes zero sense to offer more protection against a deadly virus well it clearly made sense to several Asian countries that have fought a virus before, then using that experience used masks from a very early stage. We should've taken a lot from the countries that had been hit by the virus before us and also had been hit years earlier by SARS and MERS. So why did Asian countries decide to mask up earlier and get a handle on the virus at an earlier stage and we didn't? Yesterday you said we didn't prepare because we hadn't faced a pandemic in a century, yet other countries had and we didn't follow their actions. It reeks of British exceptionalism, thinking we know best, our way is better than their way. It wouldn't be any type of weakness to see what S.Korea was doing and say we are going to take a bit of that. Yes, 'other European countries didn't' and they would be in the wrong too.

People aren't exactly buying medical grade face masks now are they, the ones I see are colourful cotton ones, sports branded ones. Not exactly the type I'd see down my local A&E. With an effective public health information drive across the nation informing the public about the right type of masks to get or even providing your citizens with reusable cotton masks we would've had a good chance to better off. Where was the national call to arms to the textile firms like we did for ventilators? We were just too slow to change our measures just like we've been for most of this and it's sadly cost lives.

[stuartbert two hats]

15 minutes ago, zahidf said:

 

 

The 64B question is - what does that mean in terms of outcomes? Does this have any implication for the infectivity? Do we still think it's only going to prevent severe disease and not protect against infection or reduce how likely you are to spread it on, assuming you still catch it?

Paging, of course @Toilet Duck.

[mandolin]

52 minutes ago, stuie said:

Someone I know said this today but surely NHS PPE isn’t procured from eBay or amazon or even the same? 

I went to Amazon to buy masks for personal use back in March.  Plenty were advertised but any that most people would consider buying (ie. those with more than a 3 star rating) were not available to buy as they were being held for NHS use - I can’t remember the exact wording.  

While there is an expectation that the NHS has centralised supplies, these are often at hugely inflated prices and not always readily available to those who in that moment are not considered to be in the greatest need.  Each department/service within the NHS has to budget for their own equipment though access priority is determined somewhere centrally,  In my 20+ years of NHS experience, prioritisation appeared to be random though I hope that was not the case during this pandemic.  

There are times when maverick managers etc will resort to buying all sorts of stuff from places that do not have NHS approval (so eBay and amazon would be included) knowing that they will have to answer to someone at sometime but, in my experience, would rarely do that unless they felt they had a really good case for doing so.  

[tarw]

6 hours ago, FestivalJamie said:

From my interpretation touching objects seems to be less of a contamination risk than airborne particles travelling across the room. Therefore having to put the mask on and off seems to be less of a risk than not wearing the mask in indoor spaces. That's my interpretation from European policy anyway.

Exactly. Policy in restaurants, cafes, bars etc. in countries like Germany, France and Italy.

I think the problem is that the airborne particles fall onto surfaces that people touch and then touch their mouths and nose later on.  Masks greatly reduce the particles emitted by someone with COVID and also stop fit people from touching their mouth and nose.

[Toilet Duck]

8 minutes ago, stuartbert two hats said:

The 64B question is - what does that mean in terms of outcomes? Does this have any implication for the infectivity? Do we still think it's only going to prevent severe disease and not protect against infection or reduce how likely you are to spread it on, assuming you still catch it?

Paging, of course @Toilet Duck.

So far, it looks like low, single dose should help with preventing severe disease. Higher doses and repeated doses seemingly give better immunological responses. How protective the higher/multiple doses are really won’t be known until the efficacy data starts to emerge towards the end of phase 2 and into the phase 3 trials. Adverse events look pretty standard so far (temp, nausea, fatigue, all fairly low grade and transient...nothing you don’t see with many other vaccines to be honest...whether rare adverse events show up in phase 3 is one of the main hurdles left now). Preventing severe disease would be a massive win, there are plenty of vaccines that have had huge impact that don’t protect from infection but prevent disease. To be honest, it all looks pretty good at the moment, still a long way to go, but certainly one of the best shots we have at an early vaccine. 

[Deaf Nobby Burton]

22 minutes ago, Ozanne said:

It makes zero sense to offer more protection against a deadly virus well it clearly made sense to several Asian countries that have fought a virus before, then using that experience used masks from a very early stage. We should've taken a lot from the countries that had been hit by the virus before us and also had been hit years earlier by SARS and MERS. So why did Asian countries decide to mask up earlier and get a handle on the virus at an earlier stage and we didn't? Yesterday you said we didn't prepare because we hadn't faced a pandemic in a century, yet other countries had and we didn't follow their actions. It reeks of British exceptionalism, thinking we know best, our way is better than their way. It wouldn't be any type of weakness to see what S.Korea was doing and say we are going to take a bit of that. Yes, 'other European countries didn't' and they would be in the wrong too.

People aren't exactly buying medical grade face masks now are they, the ones I see are colourful cotton ones, sports branded ones. Not exactly the type I'd see down my local A&E. With an effective public health information drive across the nation informing the public about the right type of masks to get or even providing your citizens with reusable cotton masks we would've had a good chance to better off. Where was the national call to arms to the textile firms like we did for ventilators? We were just too slow to change our measures just like we've been for most of this and it's sadly cost lives.

Yes, several months down the line people are now falling over themselves to produce masks. In the eye of the storm that wasn’t the case.

The NHS requirement for PPE is drastically down and the ability for manufacturers to make masks is drastically up. At the same time we’re all out and about a lot more than when we were confined to our homes, so mask wearing is a pretty simple proposition now compared to three months ago. 

 

[FestivalJamie]

40 minutes ago, zahidf said:

 

Please don’t tell me this is actually happening.

[priest17]

45 minutes ago, zahidf said:

 

Was this a thing? Did they win? No one's mentioned to me I'm not allowed to lick rats to be fair

Edited July 15, 2020 by priest17
Sp

[Ozanne]

10 minutes ago, Deaf Nobby Burton said:

Yes, several months down the line people are now falling over themselves to produce masks. In the eye of the storm that wasn’t the case.

The NHS requirement for PPE is drastically down and the ability for manufacturers to make masks is drastically up. At the same time we’re all out and about a lot more than when we were confined to our homes, so mask wearing is a pretty simple proposition now compared to three months ago. 

 

There was plenty of face coverings available in the Spring, you just weren’t looking. Trust me I was looking.

The NHS still has a requirement, they have better stock levels now available to them. Something they should’ve had at the start, I wonder why they didn’t. 
That’s cool then if you think countries in Asia that face masked up early were wrong and we got that part right. Sadly I think the 40k plus death count might go against that, or is it still too early to compare?

[Deaf Nobby Burton]

1 minute ago, Ozanne said:

There was plenty of face coverings available in the Spring, you just weren’t looking. Trust me I was looking.

The NHS still has a requirement, they have better stock levels now available to them. Something they should’ve had at the start, I wonder why they didn’t. 
That’s cool then if you think countries in Asia that face masked up early were wrong and we got that part right. Sadly I think the 40k plus death count might go against that, or is it still too early to compare?

Why bring the death count into a discussion about face masks? Is it relevant to the points either of us are trying to make? Mask wearing in a lot of Asian countries has been ingrained in them for years from things like Sarrs, how can you possibly draw parallels between the U.K.  (or Europe or the US) and counties with massive cultural differences and recent experience of potentially life threatening viruses? 

[Ozanne]

15 minutes ago, Deaf Nobby Burton said:

Why bring the death count into a discussion about face masks? Is it relevant to the points either of us are trying to make? Mask wearing in a lot of Asian countries has been ingrained in them for years from things like Sarrs, how can you possibly draw parallels between the U.K.  (or Europe or the US) and counties with massive cultural differences and recent experience of potentially life threatening viruses? 

You do realise that we can learn from those countries don’t you? We should all be working together more and just because it’s been more ‘ingrained’ into Asian countries is no reason why we couldn’t start doing so here earlier. If we had it might mean the backlash from some over masks would have calmed down by now. I don’t know how many times I have to say it but just because we are the U.K. doesn’t mean we can’t learn from other countries. Frankly it’s stupid/stubborn (take your pick) of countries that don’t learn from the experiences of others. 
I bring deaths into the conversation because face masks protect others from a virus that has killed many. I’m sorry to bring it up as I know you don’t think we have done badly but it’s entirely relevant to a conversation where the underlying topic is a deadly virus. 

Edited July 15, 2020 by Ozanne

[Deaf Nobby Burton]

4 minutes ago, Ozanne said:

You do realise that we can learn from those countries don’t you? We should all be working together more and just because it’s been more ‘ingrained’ into Asian countries is no reason why we couldn’t start doing so here earlier. If we had it might mean the backlash from some over masks wouldn’t have calmed down by now. I don’t know how many times I have to say it but just because we are the U.K. doesn’t mean we can’t learn from other countries. Frankly it’s stupid/stubborn (take your pick) of countries that don’t learn from the experiences of others. 
I bring deaths into the conversation because face masks protect others from a virus that has killed many. I’m sorry to bring it up as I know you don’t think we have done badly but it’s entirely relevant to a conversation where the underlying topic is a deadly virus. 

I’m not saying we can’t learn from them, but it’s culturally ingrained into them over decades with first hand experience of previous deadly viruses. To expect us to learn from them and adopt the same mindset over a period of a few weeks or months isn’t realistic, in my opinion. 

[Ozanne]

Just now, Deaf Nobby Burton said:

I’m not saying we can’t learn from them, but it’s culturally ingrained into them over decades with first hand experience of previous deadly viruses. To expect us to learn from them and adopt the same mindset over a period of a few weeks or months isn’t realistic, in my opinion. 

It seemed to have been successful in other European countries such as Germany and Portugal. With an effective message from the government/PHE early we could combatted some of these issues some people have over masks. Those early briefings could’ve been a great place to start, being open, honest and transparent with your population would go along way to getting people on side. It’s basic leadership.

You seem to think masks wouldn’t have been worn back then because of the culture. Locking down the country isn’t exactly in the fibre of our country yet from what we hear the vast majority complied. The vast majority complied with not seeing family for weeks. The vast majority complied with a huge upheaval in working environment some with kids added in their too. So to suggest because it isn’t in our culture to wear masks that it isn’t realistic does the British people a disservice as the evidence of the past few months indicates we can make these changes when asked. 

[Deaf Nobby Burton]

2 minutes ago, Ozanne said:

It seemed to have been successful in other European countries such as Germany and Portugal. With an effective message from the government/PHE early we could combatted some of these issues some people have over masks. Those early briefings could’ve been a great place to start, being open, honest and transparent with your population would go along way to getting people on side. It’s basic leadership.

You seem to think masks wouldn’t have been worn back then because of the culture. Locking down the country isn’t exactly in the fibre of our country yet from what we hear the vast majority complied. The vast majority complied with not seeing family for weeks. The vast majority complied with a huge upheaval in working environment some with kids added in their too. So to suggest because it isn’t in our culture to wear masks that it isn’t realistic does the British people a disservice as the evidence of the past few months indicates we can make these changes when asked. 

I think mandating mask wearing while in lockdown and with NHS supplies under stress would’ve been a big mistake, little gain vs potential large loss.

Beyond that I think there should’ve been a big drive for people to wear masks based on it being beneficial to everyone else. There should’ve been a big publicity drive about wearing a mask and it being about protecting other people way back in May, not now. 

That is my position and I can’t really say more than that. 

[shoptildrop]

So to change the subject Twitter has just been hacked big style with a Bitcoin scam and whoever did this has made a killing!!

Seriously can this year get any more unreal?? And why to people still fall for this shit?? 🤔

 

 

Edited July 16, 2020 by shoptildrop

[steviewevie]

7 hours ago, FestivalJamie said:

Please don’t tell me this is actually happening.

I organised it.

[Ozanne]

https://time.com/5861697/us-uk-failed-coronavirus-response/?utm_source=pocket-newtab-global-en-GB
 

‘two right wing “illiberal populist” leaders who believed their nations were invulnerable, generally rejected science, and turned inwards and away from multilateralism. Their parallel decisions consigned many of their citizens to the grave.’
’It is a tragedy that both the U.S. and U.K. failed to recognize the risk to their nations, believing that their own exceptionalism would pull them through and that outbreaks were something that happened elsewhere in the world.’

’American and British exceptionalism during COVID-19 reached a peak when both countries ignored the WHO’s guidance on how to prevent coronavirus transmission.’

[The other Bellboy]

Someone earlier mentioned the long term effects of Covid and why it should definitely not be taken lightly or compared to the flu. I found this article really interesting and worrying. Sorry if it's already been posted but i've only read the last 6 or 7 pages or so.

https://www.bbc.com/news/53193835

On the issue of mask wearing, we are still seeing a few people wearing them over here and from what i've seen they are nearly always Asian people, think its a cultural thing from what i understand.

[stuartbert two hats]

8 hours ago, Toilet Duck said:

So far, it looks like low, single dose should help with preventing severe disease. Higher doses and repeated doses seemingly give better immunological responses. How protective the higher/multiple doses are really won’t be known until the efficacy data starts to emerge towards the end of phase 2 and into the phase 3 trials. Adverse events look pretty standard so far (temp, nausea, fatigue, all fairly low grade and transient...nothing you don’t see with many other vaccines to be honest...whether rare adverse events show up in phase 3 is one of the main hurdles left now). Preventing severe disease would be a massive win, there are plenty of vaccines that have had huge impact that don’t protect from infection but prevent disease. To be honest, it all looks pretty good at the moment, still a long way to go, but certainly one of the best shots we have at an early vaccine. 

It's bloody brilliant having an actual expert on the thread!