When will this shit end?

[Ryan1984]

I’m on another forum full of horrible ‘all lives matter and Tories can do no wrong’ types and love to stir them up with common sense and compassion.

They were moaning about the BLM protests, Liverpool last night etc saying they will be responsible for the second spike. I pointed out they’d forgotten to place any blame on the history-loving ‘statue defenders’ - who oddly don’t seem fussed about museums reopening next week 😝

Edited June 26, 2020 by Ryan1984

[DeanoL]

12 hours ago, jparx said:

I think they know they'd get slaughtered if they did.

As would Labour as they would lose the huge grassroots support Corbyn built up.

The "they need to go away and build their own party" line was the one Momentum were using throughout most of Corbyn's reign about the right of the party. They didn't do that, but they did start actively working against the election campaign. And many voters just decided not to vote.

Starmer at least seems to understand that he needs to appeal to both sides of the party (hence why RLB was in the shadow cabinet in the first place) but it does seem like a lot of the right of the party don't.

[Matt42]

10 hours ago, Chapple12345 said:

Sorry to be blunt in asking this but is Florida a crazy state or a more sensible one? If they're more radical and unlocked early is it more likely they'll have a quick rise? 

My sister lives there. They never really locked down. People spend their life on the beach there and didn’t stop when COVID was going on. They also didn’t close any of their shops or mega stores. Basically everything was still fully operational. It’s a state where quite a lot of people work in face to face jobs as well, the service industry is massive in Florida. If the entire state shut down the state would have totally gone bankrupt. There is no furlough scheme or anything. Shutting down meant that they wouldn’t get any money so they didn’t do it.

[Matt42]

33 minutes ago, DeanoL said:

As would Labour as they would lose the huge grassroots support Corbyn built up.

The "they need to go away and build their own party" line was the one Momentum were using throughout most of Corbyn's reign about the right of the party. They didn't do that, but they did start actively working against the election campaign. And many voters just decided not to vote.

Starmer at least seems to understand that he needs to appeal to both sides of the party (hence why RLB was in the shadow cabinet in the first place) but it does seem like a lot of the right of the party don't.

But Corbyn was a big reason why labour lost. The grassroots campaign of labour was actually just becoming a social media darling with a group of younguns that couldn’t be bothered to actually vote. Kier is doing the right thing by coming down hard on momentum, as momentum we’re a huge reason why the Corbyn project failed.

Asking Momentum to form their own party is a much more sensible thing to ask, as they should be ousted from the Labour Party as it is. They lost labour an election, they should be gone.

[kingcrawler]

2 hours ago, FloorFiller said:

"Hello, work. For some reason I'm just not feeling all that great after Glastonbury, so looks like I'm gonna have to self isolate for two weeks! Awh shucks!"

You’re going to Primavera aren’t you? We could end up having a month of Primavera, self isolating then Glastonbury. I’m all for it tbh.

[DeanoL]

11 minutes ago, Matt42 said:

But Corbyn was a big reason why labour lost. The grassroots campaign of labour was actually just becoming a social media darling with a group of younguns that couldn’t be bothered to actually vote. Kier is doing the right thing by coming down hard on momentum, as momentum we’re a huge reason why the Corbyn project failed.

Asking Momentum to form their own party is a much more sensible thing to ask, as they should be ousted from the Labour Party as it is. They lost labour an election, they should be gone.

Okay. Now you don't have the votes to win another election. Congrats. You've done what they did. I'll vote Green next time.

The grassroots campaign was actually incredible. I saw those "younguns" out knocking on doors and actively campaigning. To dismiss as "a social media darling" is bullshit of the highest order. A lot of young people worked very hard and you can say it didn't work but they had a majority in the 18-30 age group. https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2019/12/17/how-britain-voted-2019-general-election

What they failed to do was appeal to the older voters.

But the problem is not solved by abandoning the younger voters and going after the older ones exclusively. Then you just get the same problem in reverse. Unfortunately I don't think people like you and the right of Labour will actually see that until they alienate those voters then lose even worse in 2024. The Corbynites were certainly guilty of trying to return to 1974, but the right of the party only seem interested in returning to 1997. Neither side seem to get that it's different now, and that unless they can work together, we're fucked.

[DeanoL]

Oh and Corbyn was pretty popular when he was first elected leader. Once this pandemic ends, and the national press start actually going after Starmer, for 4 years, we'll see how popular he is then...

[Ozanne]

https://www.nme.com/news/music/government-unveils-five-stage-plan-see-live-performances-return-uk-2696280?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=government-unveils-five-stage-plan-see-live-performances-return-uk&amp&__twitter_impression=true
 

I think we missed this announcement yesterday. Doesn’t seem too much of a stretch their 5 points.

[steviewevie]

21 minutes ago, DeanoL said:

Oh and Corbyn was pretty popular when he was first elected leader. Once this pandemic ends, and the national press start actually going after Starmer, for 4 years, we'll see how popular he is then...

He even had his own festival.

[Matt42]

23 minutes ago, DeanoL said:

Okay. Now you don't have the votes to win another election. Congrats. You've done what they did. I'll vote Green next time.

The grassroots campaign was actually incredible. I saw those "younguns" out knocking on doors and actively campaigning. To dismiss as "a social media darling" is bullshit of the highest order. A lot of young people worked very hard and you can say it didn't work but they had a majority in the 18-30 age group. https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2019/12/17/how-britain-voted-2019-general-election

What they failed to do was appeal to the older voters.

But the problem is not solved by abandoning the younger voters and going after the older ones exclusively. Then you just get the same problem in reverse. Unfortunately I don't think people like you and the right of Labour will actually see that until they alienate those voters then lose even worse in 2024. The Corbynites were certainly guilty of trying to return to 1974, but the right of the party only seem interested in returning to 1997. Neither side seem to get that it's different now, and that unless they can work together, we're fucked.

If these young voters won’t vote labour because of an internal party restructuring then they were never labour voters anyway. If their view of the party is corbyn or the highway it’s useless to appease them.

[DeanoL]

1 minute ago, Matt42 said:

If these young voters won’t vote labour because of an internal party restructuring then they were never labour voters anyway. If their view of the party is corbyn or the highway it’s useless to appease them.

They will vote Labour. They won't if they're literally told to fuck off and start their own party though. In that case, they'll probably fuck off and start their own party.

Most are reasonable. Most know there won't be the same level of socialist policy under Starmer as there was under Corbyn. But there needs to be something. These people can be retained, but you need to offer them something, there has to be a balance. 

But fine, lets follow your reasoning. These people can fuck off, there's no point appeasing them. So your starting point is basically Milliband in 2010. You lose all the people Corbyn bought in, but gain all the people Corbyn lost, and essentially end up in the same place. (2010 and 2019 both had similar Tory majorities).

Who are you going to appease now? Not the left, you ruled them out, they fucked off and started their own party. So further right then? What policies are you going to put in to appeal to those people who voted Tory in the Cameron years? The ones you now need to win over? 

[steviewevie]

Labour have such a massive task to get back into power, the only possible chance they have is by appealing to a broad church. Not sure if Starmer will manage this...but Long Bailey really should have just deleted the tweet and come out with a statement apologising for any offence caused, she hadn't read the whole article etc etc. Why the feck do those on the left have to keep implying Israel is some how at fault for all the world's ills.

[zahidf]

Imagine RLB retweeting an article she admits she hasn't read properly with a quote about some weird rubbish about Israel teaching American cops to be racist being the hill some lefties are willing to die on.

[DeanoL]

10 minutes ago, Matt42 said:

If these young voters won’t vote labour because of an internal party restructuring then they were never labour voters anyway. If their view of the party is corbyn or the highway it’s useless to appease them.

Thinking about it, it's this viewpoint that is the problem. That being a Labour or Conservative voter is an identity, not a choice made every election.

You're right. They're not labour voters. Never were. They're floating voters. I'd say a huge proportion of under 30s are floating voters. Often not Lab/Con floaters,  but Lab/Green, or Lab/Lib, or Lab/Fuck-off-new-Momentum-party floating voters.

And you know who else aren't Labour voters? Working class Northern people. That voted Tory this time around because they weren't happy with Corbyn. They voted Labour all their life but they were never "labour voters" - they were always floating voters and the Corbyn project took them for granted.

It's this sort of identity politics that will fuck us over entirely. 

[zahidf]

Just now, steviewevie said:

Labour have such a massive task to get back into power, the only possible chance they have is by appealing to a broad church. Not sure if Starmer will manage this...but Long Bailey really should have just deleted the tweet and come out with a statement apologising for any offence caused, she hadn't read the whole article etc etc. Why the feck do those on the left have to keep implying Israel is some how at fault for all the world's ills.

apparently she refused to apologise and was then not taking calls for 4 hours before starmer sacked her. 

 

https://m.huffingtonpost.co.uk/amp/entry/keir-starmer-rebecca-long-bailey_uk_5ef50f91c5b6acab283efcb2/?iuw=&__twitter_impression=true

[DeanoL]

Starmer had to bench RLB as he just can't risk being tarred with the same anti-Semitism stuff that sunk Corbyn. Honsestly doesn't even matter if it's true or not, just that idea floating around would be a disaster.

What he needs to do now is replace with someone else from the left of the party to make it clear that it was done because of what she said, and not because he wanted to clear out the last of the Corbynites.

[steviewevie]

From Guardian live feed...

Austria: 40% of residents in coronavirus 'ground zero' ski resort have antibodies

Philip Oltermann

Some 40% of residents in the Tyrolean skiing resort that has been described as a possible “ground zero” for the pandemic in Europe have developed Covid-19 antibodies, scientists have found.

Scientists from the university of Innsbruck tested 80% of the population of Ischgl, a popular Austrian skiing destination from which tourists have been confirmed to have carried the virus to Germany, Britain, Denmark, Iceland, Belgium, the Netherlands, and even Brazil and Israel.

Of 1,259 adults and 214 children tested, 42.5% had developed antibodies for the virus. The director of the university’s Institute for Virology, Dorothee von Laer, on Thursday described the result as the higher level of infection confirmed across the globe so far.

Of those infected, only 15% had experienced any sorts of symptoms, the study found, meaning that as many as 85% experienced the infection without noticing.

[steviewevie]

Intu about to go into administration.

[zahidf]

Very infectious.

[Ozanne]

2 hours ago, DeanoL said:

Starmer had to bench RLB as he just can't risk being tarred with the same anti-Semitism stuff that sunk Corbyn. Honsestly doesn't even matter if it's true or not, just that idea floating around would be a disaster.

What he needs to do now is replace with someone else from the left of the party to make it clear that it was done because of what she said, and not because he wanted to clear out the last of the Corbynites.

I said this yesterday but he’s now come across as much more decisive as Johnson who refuses to sack those close to him. 

[steviewevie]

 

https://www.politics.co.uk/comment-analysis/2020/06/26/long-bailey-sacking-shows-starmer-is-serious-about-winning

Edited June 26, 2020 by steviewevie

[SalviaPlath]

Jenrick potentially did something quite serious that deserves having the whip removed. It should probably be more than just a sacking.

The RLB thing is just a factional witch hunt. I was bothered about it but it's how the political game is played I suppose.

[steviewevie]

Good to see some of that good old British common sense on display at the beaches.

[steviewevie]

16 minutes ago, SalviaPlath said:

Jenrick potentially did something quite serious that deserves having the whip removed. It should probably be more than just a sacking.

The RLB thing is just a factional witch hunt. I was bothered about it but it's how the political game is played I suppose.

witch hunt?

oh dear.

[SalviaPlath]

13 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

witch hunt?

oh dear.

Well she did nothing wrong so yes.