When will this shit end?

[Neil]

46 minutes ago, priest17 said:

One thing that's become really obvious over the last few years is that the UK is just flat out right wing at this point

nothing to do with 'at this point' - I'd say political sentiment is always much the same - and I'd disagree with 'flat out right wing' too. The UK is small-c conservative.

And I'd say that Labour only really stand a chance of winning when they recognise that, as Blair did.

It doesn't mean Labour have to ape the tories, but it does mean they have to avoid the sort of 'disorder' or 'anti-British' or 'anti-Western' version of leftism that Corbyn stood for. If a leader doesn't appear to back the country the country won't back that leader.

It's fuck all good aiming at utopia if you can't take enough of the population with you to win.

Edited June 10, 2020 by Neil

[worthyraver]

This is interesting and I suspect history will repeat itself: "The historical pattern is clear. Ambitious Labour candidates pitch to the left to win the support of socialist members before tacking to the right once their dependence on these members ceases"

https://www.oxfordstudent.com/2020/04/12/starmer-wont-completely-do-away-with-corbynism/

[jparx]

Look what just arrived!

[Neil]

4 minutes ago, worthyraver said:

This is interesting and I suspect history will repeat itself: "The historical pattern is clear. Ambitious Labour candidates pitch to the left to win the support of socialist members before tacking to the right once their dependence on these members ceases"

https://www.oxfordstudent.com/2020/04/12/starmer-wont-completely-do-away-with-corbynism/

or alternatively, they pitch to the left to win the party and then tack to the right to win the country.

Like it or not, the UK is hugely unlikely to ever vote in a govt that stands on the sort of platform the members would like.

It's worth pointing out that the tories don't pander to the most extreme views of their members (even tho it sometimes seems like it). They know they wouldn't win if they did.

Edited June 10, 2020 by Neil

[squirrelarmy]

18 minutes ago, jparx said:

Look what just arrived!

Is that actually real? I thought it was just a joke advert

[jparx]

9 minutes ago, squirrelarmy said:

Is that actually real? I thought it was just a joke advert

It's real! I'm not a brewdog expert but it looks to me like a recycled flavour with a new label stuck on, but funny none the less!

[efcfanwirral]

1 hour ago, zahidf said:

… One very senior Tory MP said to me: ‘Our leadership is pitiful. Boris Johnson needs to be honest. Opening up the economy brings risks. If we don’t do this we are heading for economic catastrophe.’”

I actually agree with this - its about honesty now- we're past the point where we can contain the virus (we had our chance and we've failed on that) but some honesty in "if you go to the pub, you might catch it" type terms would mean people have the information available to them to make decisions.

Sticking with inferring that it's safe because they have allowed it to open is dangerous 

[zahidf]

Denmark, the first country outside Asia to ease its coronavirus lockdown, said on Wednesday the spread of Covid-19 has not accelerated since it entered its second phase of reopening society last month, reports Reuters.

The Nordic country allowed restaurants, cafes and malls to resume business during May in the second phase of easing lockdown restrictions. In April it had allowed day care centres, schools, hair dressers and some small businesses to reopen.

“The level of contagion in society is still very low,” the Danish health authority said in a report on Wednesday, adding that the number of confirmed new infections had continued to fall despite more tests being carried out.

The number of coronavirus-related deaths has hovered between zero and four per day in the last three weeks, after a peak of 22 deaths on March 31. The number of hospitalisations has fallen to fewer than 100 since the beginning of June.

“There is no sign yet of noticeable changes in the extent of contagion despite the gradual opening of society in April and early May,” the report said.

[DeanoL]

40 minutes ago, Neil said:

It's worth pointing out that the tories don't pander to the most extreme views of their members (even tho it sometimes seems like it). They know they wouldn't win if they did.

Are we acting like Brexit isn't an extreme political position now? Because honestly I'm still not there yet. 

[zahidf]

[Neil]

1 minute ago, DeanoL said:

Are we acting like Brexit isn't an extreme political position now? Because honestly I'm still not there yet. 

that didn't happen because of tory members views, but instead to try and head-off an election loss because of voters moving to UKIP. 

There's a huge pile of issues around brexit and the vote for it, but it didn't happen because Cameron was enacting the wish of the more-extreme views amongst the tory membership. Those more-extreme members had been wanting it for decades and were constantly refused - and Cameron thought he wouldn't have to follow thru because he'd have another coalition with the LibDems.

[SalviaPlath]

1 hour ago, zahidf said:

Tbh the far left seem a bit nuts

 

He voted to bomb Libya and went into coalition with the Tories on Derby council so yes he is a bit nuts but he's not the "far left". He's an entryist who saw the way the wind was blowing and allied himself to Corbyn for personal ambition.

[jparx]

Not sure why Boris' new tactic here is to try and out lawyer Starmer. Makes him look like more of a tit.

[Ozanne]

Starmer going right in on Schools!

[Crazyfool01]

have the tory mps  been encouraged to up the noise levels ?

[efcfanwirral]

1 minute ago, jparx said:

Not sure why Boris' new tactic here is to try and out lawyer Starmer. Makes him look like more of a tit.

To be fair my reading of this Starmer is getting taken apart here - he's fallen into the trap of just opposing whatever the government does with this schools thing. He said last week it's not safe and this week he's on about sending kids back and he's just digging now 

[Ryan1984]

1 minute ago, efcfanwirral said:

To be fair my reading of this Starmer is getting taken apart here - he's fallen into the trap of just opposing whatever the government does with this schools thing. He said last week it's not safe and this week he's on about sending kids back and he's just digging now 

I thought this. First week Starmer hasn’t had control...

[jparx]

3 minutes ago, efcfanwirral said:

To be fair my reading of this Starmer is getting taken apart here - he's fallen into the trap of just opposing whatever the government does with this schools thing. He said last week it's not safe and this week he's on about sending kids back and he's just digging now 

I think he's more picking apart their u-turns. His argument is more nuanced than the Tories can handle - it's not just send them back or don't, it's send them back asap with X y and z in place. Which I think he's been fairly consistent on.

[efcfanwirral]

1 minute ago, jparx said:

I think he's more picking apart their u-turns. His argument is more nuanced than the Tories can handle - it's not just send them back or don't, it's send them back asap with X y and z in place. Which I think he's been fairly consistent on.

It won't help with what's needed though which is actually convincing the public to vote for them. Boris had a good response which shut him down, wound him up and left him sounding like his clown of a predecessor

[jparx]

3 minutes ago, efcfanwirral said:

It won't help with what's needed though which is actually convincing the public to vote for them. Boris had a good response which shut him down, wound him up and left him sounding like his clown of a predecessor

Hmm I didn't quite view it the same way, but hey ho.

I enjoyed Starmer's line on Boris' rehearsed attacks. That's exactly how Boris comes across here.

[Ozanne]

4 minutes ago, efcfanwirral said:

To be fair my reading of this Starmer is getting taken apart here - he's fallen into the trap of just opposing whatever the government does with this schools thing. He said last week it's not safe and this week he's on about sending kids back and he's just digging now 

I think he handled PMQs well, he was picking up on the governments U turn on schools and the lack of reaching out to stakeholders. He’s said he wants kids to go back in a safe way and it’s come out there isn’t a safe way yet in some cases.

 

I thought him commenting on it being too early comparing deaths to other countries was spot on. How does it feel for those families to hear it’s too early indeed. 

[Ozanne]

2 minutes ago, efcfanwirral said:

It won't help with what's needed though which is actually convincing the public to vote for them. Boris had a good response which shut him down, wound him up and left him sounding like his clown of a predecessor

I didn’t see that either, he sounded worlds apart from Corbyn. Boris was bringing up something that didn’t happen to get out of discussing the point of not reaching out for consensus.

[zahidf]

 

[efcfanwirral]

2 minutes ago, Ozanne said:

I didn’t see that either, he sounded worlds apart from Corbyn. Boris was bringing up something that didn’t happen to get out of discussing the point of not reaching out for consensus.

I think I watch these as if from the point of view of someone less politically engaged and/or who needs convincing - so from a lowest common denominator viewpoint that was not good for Starmer. We're mainly the converted on here 

[zahidf]

BBC news cut out the line about flip flopping on the radio. Just kept the stuff about boris asking for encouragement and support.