When will this shit end?

[DareToDibble]

2 hours ago, jparx said:

Well, Corbyn played heavily to them and got slaughtered in the GE, so losing that minority of hardcores might be irrelevant if Starmer wins traditional voters back. 

In Keir's hair we trust!

The thing is they aren’t gonna go from hard left to voting Tory so they’ll have 2 options. Vote Labour or don’t vote. The reality is if they don’t vote Labour will have gained more people that WILL vote for them than ones they’ve lost so will still end up in a net gain.

You’d also like to think the hard left would recognise that if they don’t vote at all then they’re having a hand in giving another majority to the Tories. Surely they wouldn’t be that stubborn.

[stuartbert two hats]

1 minute ago, DareToDibble said:

The thing is they aren’t gonna go from hard left to voting Tory so they’ll have 2 options. Vote Labour or don’t vote. The reality is if they don’t vote Labour will have gained more people that WILL vote for them than ones they’ve lost so will still end up in a net gain.

You’d also like to think the hard left would recognise that if they don’t vote at all then they’re having a hand in giving another majority to the Tories. Surely they wouldn’t be that stubborn.

😐

[zahidf]

Cant hug your nan but can go on nemesis inferno with her.

 

[DareToDibble]

7 minutes ago, stuartbert two hats said:

😐

I didn’t even believe myself when typing that to be honest.

[Crazyfool01]

12 minutes ago, zahidf said:

Cant hug your nan but can go on nemesis inferno with her.

 

Corona coaster ? 

[shoptildrop]

Looks like Zoos and Safari parks can open on the 15th too - they really are just winging this based on public opinion  (I do agree zoos should open though, it just seems all so random with how/what they are opening)

[Chapple12345]

30 minutes ago, shoptildrop said:

Looks like Zoos and Safari parks can open on the 15th too - they really are just winging this based on public opinion  (I do agree zoos should open though, it just seems all so random with how/what they are opening)

There had been a lot of news coverage about the plight of zoos struggling financially including London and Chester which are world renowned so if they went under there was little hope for other smaller zoos, I'm glad they're able to reopen soon as for all the controversy they may cause they do a great job preserving our natural world and also provide a great experience where we know social distancing can be implemented and enforced e.g. Limited people, one way systems etc. 

[shoptildrop]

1 hour ago, Chapple12345 said:

There had been a lot of news coverage about the plight of zoos struggling financially including London and Chester which are world renowned so if they went under there was little hope for other smaller zoos, I'm glad they're able to reopen soon as for all the controversy they may cause they do a great job preserving our natural world and also provide a great experience where we know social distancing can be implemented and enforced e.g. Limited people, one way systems etc. 

I'm glad they are opening up too, my point was that those who shout loud enough in the court of public opinion seem to be opening up in ad hoc fashion rather than actual strategy by gov.... interesting it's ahead of Bojo's weekly work meeting that its announced aka good news day (probably see some scientists tomorrow to back it up, most likely Jenny rather than other guys who don't have good poker faces)

[DeanoL]

5 hours ago, Ozanne said:

I’ve been thinking about that, he’ll never quit though. It would have to get much worse for Tories to turn on him, he’s moulded the party. The new MPs owe him their jobs in a way. He’ll be desperate for a 2nd term as well.

I don't think he will be. He's clearly not relishing the job, he's come face to face with what the actual reality of being PM means and is swiftly realising it's not for him.

Everything he would want to get out of it: the status, the book deal, the speaking circuit, he can get from one term. Especially one in which he "oversees" a national crisis. I actually can't think of any reason he would want a second term.

4 hours ago, jparx said:

To be honest I think those types need to just suck it up for the time being. Now isn't the time for infighting. Get the Tories out, hammer them in to the ground and then we can move to the centre-left Vs left debate. But for now, for god sake just get together and fight the common enemy. I agree with most of their views and want the same thing, but frankly they need to get their head out of their arse and accept the reality. 

That's the attitude the Corbynites took with the centre-left for five years. Where did that get us?

3 hours ago, stuartbert two hats said:

Bang on. Just because some parts of the party didn't pull together in the past, that doesn't make it a good idea to continue to hand the next election to the Tories because of all the in fighting in Labour.

Indeed. But that's a hard if not impossible sell. "We were so stubborn we actively campaigned for Corbyn to lose, and there's documentary evidence of that, but now we need you to get on side with us". It might be vaguely possible if they address it the way you did "okay, we were twats and didn't back Labour when Corbyn were in charge, but we need you to be better people than us and back Starmer now" but no-one is actually going to say that. It's been lost in the Coronavirus stuff, but that leaked Labour report is going to totally alienate the left of the party unless it's addressed head on. If there's apology, contrition, and attempts to unify the party there's a chance. If it's just "well it's us or the Tories, make your bed" then it won't work. It didn't work twice already.

2 hours ago, DareToDibble said:

The thing is they aren’t gonna go from hard left to voting Tory so they’ll have 2 options. Vote Labour or don’t vote. The reality is if they don’t vote Labour will have gained more people that WILL vote for them than ones they’ve lost so will still end up in a net gain.

And still lose. It's just a 40 Tory majority instead of 80.

It's also not that simple: Corbyn did far better than Milliband in the first election on a similar policy platform to the one he lost to Johnson with. Which suggests it's more about perceived competence and less about policy. That and five years of attacks from the press.

Honestly at this point I think Labour's best chance in any election is to install a new leader a year before the next GE so there's not so much time for the press to ruin them, because they're always going to back the Tories regardless at this point.

But all that aside: Labour only win if they can keep the gains Corbyn made and regain the people Corbyn lost. A strategy that just does one or the other isn't going to work.

[worthyraver]

I am sure a lot of Corbynites will back Starmer I wont be one of them as I am a grudge bearer.

Starmer is basically Blair he is already moving to the right.

[dentalplan]

25 minutes ago, worthyraver said:

I am sure a lot of Corbynites will back Starmer I wont be one of them as I am a grudge bearer.

Starmer is basically Blair he is already moving to the right.

[Homer]

31 minutes ago, worthyraver said:

I am sure a lot of Corbynites will back Starmer I wont be one of them as I am a grudge bearer.

Starmer is basically Blair he is already moving to the right.

A lot of them must have already surely. Not au fait with all the figures, but am assuming they must have done based on the size of Starmer's win in the leadership cove?

Be interested to know, have you come up with an alternative strategy/solution? And would you actually prefer more Johnston to Starmer? I know I wouldn't.

Also,. how is Starmer moving to the right? I didn't think h'ed really had a chance to lay out much in the way of policies yet.

Edited June 10, 2020 by Homer

[stuartbert two hats]

6 hours ago, DeanoL said:

That's the attitude the Corbynites took with the centre-left for five years. Where did that get us?

That's not my experience. There was huge overt hostility from within the Corbyn supporting wing of the party (although admittedly not from the man himself) to the "neo-libs".

Every time Jess Phillips got on telly and impressed the rest of the country, there would be stream of posts about how awful she was for saying she's stab Jeremy Corbyn in the front. It was so frustrating - "we'd" won, but my friends on the left were still more obsessed with internal enemies than using the skills across the party to fight the Tories.

Personally, I registered as a supporter to vote for Corbyn in 2016 and joined as a member during Starmer's election, although in the end I didn't vote, as I was somewhat haunted by my ultimate failure to help change the government in the last election.

The important thing for me is that New Labour was not basically the Tories and there's very little  evidence that Starmer is basically Blair. Thinking "they were all the same" is what handed Cameron his victory against Miliband. I'm going to need one hell of a good reason not to support Labour for many many years to come.

[steviewevie]

5 minutes ago, stuartbert two hats said:

That's not my experience. There was huge overt hostility from within the Corbyn supporting wing of the party (although admittedly not from the man himself) to the "neo-libs".

Every time Jess Phillips got on telly and impressed the rest of the country, there would be stream of posts about how awful she was for saying she's stab Jeremy Corbyn in the front. It was so frustrating - "we'd" won, but my friends on the left were still more obsessed with internal enemies than using the skills across the party to fight the Tories.

Personally, I registered as a supporter to vote for Corbyn in 2016 and joined as a member during Starmer's election, although in the end I didn't vote, as I was somewhat haunted by my ultimate failure to help change the government in the last election.

The important thing for me is that New Labour was not basically the Tories and there's very little  evidence that Starmer is basically Blair. Thinking "they were all the same" is what handed Cameron his victory against Miliband. I'm going to need one hell of a good reason not to support Labour for many many years to come.

Yeah, this. I have always voted labour except when I voted green because blair/iraq, but on the whole I just want them to get in and get the tories out. Labour is never perfect especially when they have to please a wide range of the electorate...but they've always got to be better than the tories, right kids?
Like a lot of people I liked Corbyn first of all, his past as an activist, his principles and that he wasn't seen as the usual clean cut career politician...but in the end he was a fairly shit leader and I also got sick of the corbynites and their bile if anyone was to dare criticise corbyn or make any antisemitism accusations.
Starmer is smart, and he knows that if labour are going to win he has to somehow do the broad church thing...so like these statues, he says those statues should be in a museum, but he condems the vandalism, trying to please both the more radical element of the left, and also the large part of the electorate who like their law and order stuff.

[Homer]

This gonna be a fun ride:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jun/09/boris-johnson-trade-deal-us-chlorinated-chicken?CMP=fb_gu&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook&fbclid=IwAR1xRrxATcvL65PqulisUnUK5HVRwW6wslQKhbGqj8Lk-DqsWixMQ1uzXpY#Echobox=1591770640

[SwedgeAntilles]

8 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

Starmer is smart, and he knows that if labour are going to win he has to somehow do the broad church thing...so like these statues, he says those statues should be in a museum, but he condems the vandalism, trying to please both the more radical element of the left, and also the large part of the electorate who like their law and order stuff.

Going down the Indiana Jones route. 

[worthyraver]

Straight after his leadership victory: "Packing the Treasury team with people whose political positions are to the right of Rishi Sunak right now seems particularly provocative," said one leftwing MP.

That quote from here:
https://www.ft.com/content/5b48bf77-b708-4d94-86d4-353f9abb4d32

I will vote Green and switch my party membership to The Green Party also.

[jparx]

8 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

Yeah, this. I have always voted labour except when I voted green because blair/iraq, but on the whole I just want them to get in and get the tories out. Labour is never perfect especially when they have to please a wide range of the electorate...but they've always got to be better than the tories, right kids?
Like a lot of people I liked Corbyn first of all, his past as an activist, his principles and that he wasn't seen as the usual clean cut career politician...but in the end he was a fairly shit leader and I also got sick of the corbynites and their bile if anyone was to dare criticise corbyn or make any antisemitism accusations.
Starmer is smart, and he knows that if labour are going to win he has to somehow do the broad church thing...so like these statues, he says those statues should be in a museum, but he condems the vandalism, trying to please both the more radical element of the left, and also the large part of the electorate who like their law and order stuff.

Yep. I liked Corbyn a lot and was very much for the manifesto in 17 and 19, but a majority of the country didn't feel the same way. Starmer is playing the "unite the country" routine and I think it's absolutely the right play no matter your flavour of left wing politics. 

[Zoo Music Girl]

I don't think it's that accurate to say that people on the centre left didn't vote for Corbyn either. We all know the northern working class towns narrative, but there were loads of people like me who weren't keen on Corbyn but still voted for him because Jesus Christ look at the alternative. I don't understand why the same logic can't apply the other way round. 

I used to be against tactical voting when I was younger, thinking you should only vote for people who truly match your beliefs. But if you're waiting for a candidate like that you're never going to vote. First past the post is basically the issue, but while we've got that I think it's always going to be a case of hold your nose and vote for the least worst option.

Edited June 10, 2020 by Zoo Music Girl

[Cream Soda]

Do we think there will ever be a move towards proportional representation in this country?  I think that's pretty much the only thing that could get me engaged in politics again.

[Ozanne]

In my opinion a move to PR should be one the most important things a Labour government look at. With PR we’ll never have a Tory majority again and looking at it I can’t see what party would go into a power sharing agreement with them anytime soon either. 

14 minutes ago, Zoo Music Girl said:

I don't think it's that accurate to say that people on the centre left didn't vote for Corbyn either. We all know the northern working class towns narrative, but there were loads of people like me who weren't keen on Corbyn but still voted for him because Jesus Christ look at the alternative. I don't understand why the same logic can't apply the other way round. 

I used to be against tactical voting when I was younger, thinking you should only vote for people who truly match your beliefs. But if you're waiting for a candidate like that you're never going to vote. First past the post is basically the issue, but while we've got that I think it's always going to be a case of hold your nose and vote for the least worst option.

Definitely go with Tactical Voting I’d say, if it works and can help elect a non-Tory government then go for it.  

[Zoo Music Girl]

7 minutes ago, Cream Soda said:

Do we think there will ever be a move towards proportional representation in this country?  I think that's pretty much the only thing that could get me engaged in politics again.

I don't think so because the parties in power are pretty happy with the status quo. I don't think Labour have ever really got behind it have they? It's always been a Lib Dem ask. But as long as the Tories are against it it's a non starter.

Personally I think coalitions are the way forward. I doubt Labour will get a win next time around without some miracle but I do think a hung parliament is possible again and would like to see the non Tory parties make government out of that.

Edit: terrible morning typing! 

Edited June 10, 2020 by Zoo Music Girl

[stuartbert two hats]

11 minutes ago, Cream Soda said:

Do we think there will ever be a move towards proportional representation in this country?  I think that's pretty much the only thing that could get me engaged in politics again.

The perennial problem with PR is that it makes sense to everyone, apart from the party who has just won under the old system.

[Zoo Music Girl]

I suppose this issue will be playing itself out in US politics pretty soon. After the last four years, are people on the left there really going to refuse to vote for Biden because he's not their preferred candidate (probably for legitimate reasons but still)? I fucking hope not, but I wouldn't be surprised.

[Homer]

1 hour ago, worthyraver said:

Straight after his leadership victory: "Packing the Treasury team with people whose political positions are to the right of Rishi Sunak right now seems particularly provocative," said one leftwing MP.

That quote from here:
https://www.ft.com/content/5b48bf77-b708-4d94-86d4-353f9abb4d32

I will vote Green and switch my party membership to The Green Party also.

Are you honestly saying that you think that the current Labour Party is more right wing than the Conservatives, who have just purged the left of their own party? And that's based on one unsubstantiated quote from what would appear to be a slightly biased source.

To echo the above, I wasn't totally onboard with Corbyn, especially at the most recent election after his Brexit 'performance', but I still voted for him both times.

Perhaps switching towards a type of politics that may actually succeed, as opposed to sticking with one that has just failed twice in a row (and hasn't succeeded since the 1970s) may actually get rid of the Tories? Unless there's a new poll out there showing that the Greens are in with a chance of winning the next election that I've missed.