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When will this shit end?


Chrisp1986

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2 minutes ago, Cream Soda said:

I do think people have to take some responsibility for their own actions. I've seen photos of hundreds of people piling off a train in Brighton, some of whom are just going to sunbathe. Assuming the photo was real, how can those people not take some responsibility for what they are doing? The rules are clear about using public transport only where essential. Sunbathing is not essential. No one can claim this isn't clear, it is perfectly clear. I can only assume these people are adults who have weighed up the risks and feel they want to chance it,  even though they know they are going against government advice. If there is a second peak as a result no one can claim they didn't know they were risking it. This might conveniently fit into the government's herd immunity plan, but no one is forcing these people to pile on a train to go sunbathing. 

Oh I do agree and I think those people are mental, to be honest. My worry is people now effectively being forced back to work in retail etc. You can always assume people will be stupid and try to factor that in, but my worry is people being forced back to work and in to the firing line.

There is also a major issue around a lack of clear guidelines. People getting the train to Brighton for a day out clearly are breaking the rules, but more and more people are confused now by what exactly the rules are. Call me suspicious, but I can’t help feeling the guideline are purposely muddy at this stage to give themselves more wiggle room..

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2 minutes ago, jparx said:

Oh I do agree and I think those people are mental, to be honest. My worry is people now effectively being forced back to work in retail etc. You can always assume people will be stupid and try to factor that in, but my worry is people being forced back to work and in to the firing line.

There is also a major issue around a lack of clear guidelines. People getting the train to Brighton for a day out clearly are breaking the rules, but more and more people are confused now by what exactly the rules are. Call me suspicious, but I can’t help feeling the guideline are purposely muddy at this stage to give themselves more wiggle room..

Yes, people going to work is a different matter entirely and it's not fair for them to have to sit on a train full of sunbathers.

Are the rules really that unclear though? We both agree that the train example is crystal clear yet people are still doing it. I think most people who do this sort of thing understand the rules but are just choosing to ignore them.  It won't be fair to blame a second wave entirely on the public but some of the public's behaviour would certainly be a factor.  

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37 minutes ago, jparx said:

I think this mass easing of restrictions shows that we're fully in herd Immunity phase and there's no intention of reimposing restrictions. If you wanted to ease out of it gently and have an option to fallback if things went tits up, you wouldn't throw open so many things at once. How can they can tell what isn't working?

It's clear what the plan is now. The government are throwing open the doors, and their convenient "stay alert" messages puts the guilt on all of us if cases spike. They're effectively telling us all these things are safe if we're "alert".

Sadly I think this is bang on.

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31 minutes ago, Cream Soda said:

I do think people have to take some responsibility for their own actions. I've seen photos of hundreds of people piling off a train in Brighton, some of whom are just going to sunbathe. Assuming the photo was real, how can those people not take some responsibility for what they are doing? The rules are clear about using public transport only where essential. Sunbathing is not essential. No one can claim this isn't clear, it is perfectly clear. I can only assume these people are adults who have weighed up the risks and feel they want to chance it,  even though they know they are going against government advice. If there is a second peak as a result no one can claim they didn't know they were risking it. This might conveniently fit into the government's herd immunity plan, but no one is forcing these people to pile on a train to go sunbathing. 

No one is stopping them, though, either. I don't think you'd have been able to get a train at peak of lockdown in Spain, for example, without proving you are going to work or have a medical need. I don't want to live in a police state but nothing has been enforced in this country: transport restrictions, masks, big groups in public spaces. It's all just left up to the individual and sadly it turns out the individual is bloody selfish.

I've understood there to be no change to the guidance on public transport (avoid if possible) which is one of the big reasons we are not seeing our family or debating hiring a car if we do. But as you say it's not just about the guidance, it's about whether I think it's a risk and I think getting in a tube and train to see my over-70s mum definitely is.

I think this is one of the things that I've found most infuriating about the past few days. So many people are just excited to see the government easing things and happy to do what they can get away with that they are not actually thinking about whether it is safe or sensible to do so.

Edited by Zoo Music Girl
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8 minutes ago, Zoo Music Girl said:

Sadly I think this is bang on.

I think the only thing the Tories are trying to avoid is pictures of patients on hospital floors as that is a political weapon that can be used against them. If the NHS has capacity then they will fill it back up solely to restart the economy. 

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24 minutes ago, jparx said:

Oh I do agree and I think those people are mental, to be honest. My worry is people now effectively being forced back to work in retail etc. You can always assume people will be stupid and try to factor that in, but my worry is people being forced back to work and in to the firing line.

There is also a major issue around a lack of clear guidelines. People getting the train to Brighton for a day out clearly are breaking the rules, but more and more people are confused now by what exactly the rules are. Call me suspicious, but I can’t help feeling the guideline are purposely muddy at this stage to give themselves more wiggle room..

This is my worry. I have a mate with asthma who works in a record shop and he is really nervous about going back to work in a couple of weeks. And my friend who is currently shielding also works in retail. Wondering when she will be forced back.

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It does look the the government is setting "us" up for a fall (Too many have already fallen) with their C-19 tactics. Common sense is all that is needed (Wash hands, social distance etc) So I will be keeping this up for some time even if the government says I can do certain things. I would love a pint in a pub but I aint rushing back the first day the boozers open. Gonna give it a few weeks and see what happens. I think the ecomonic worry is the biggest threat. If we end up with a second wave and have to to lockdown again many firms/self employed will bite the dust. Better to have a slightly longer lockdown and exit correctly.

I guess only time will tell. The governments track record on this thing doest fill me with confidence addd to that the public (I was going to say British but it seems to be English) and I see more worrying time ahead. Hope I am wrong. 

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3 minutes ago, Zoo Music Girl said:

No one is stopping them, though, either. 

No and I made the same point on here a week or two ago when we were discussing the photos of the beach at Southport (I think it was there?) and the point was made what can the police actually do against that amount of people. It's a tough once for sure, I don't want anyone to die unnecessarily but I also don't want to live in a police state either. 

Is there any chance this approach might actually work? If people mingle a bit more now while the vulnerable are still shielded they might catch the virus and be asymptomatic/mild cases and then prevent the virus transmitting further in the winter months, thus allowing the vulnerable to re-emerge ?

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6 minutes ago, Cream Soda said:

No and I made the same point on here a week or two ago when we were discussing the photos of the beach at Southport (I think it was there?) and the point was made what can the police actually do against that amount of people. It's a tough once for sure, I don't want anyone to die unnecessarily but I also don't want to live in a police state either. 

Is there any chance this approach might actually work? If people mingle a bit more now while the vulnerable are still shielded they might catch the virus and be asymptomatic/mild cases and then prevent the virus transmitting further in the winter months, thus allowing the vulnerable to re-emerge ?

they best get on with it ... vulnerable emerge in 2 weeks ... and the shielded will be in 4 

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1 hour ago, Cream Soda said:

I do think people have to take some responsibility for their own actions. I've seen photos of hundreds of people piling off a train in Brighton, some of whom are just going to sunbathe. Assuming the photo was real, how can those people not take some responsibility for what they are doing? The rules are clear about using public transport only where essential. Sunbathing is not essential. No one can claim this isn't clear, it is perfectly clear. I can only assume these people are adults who have weighed up the risks and feel they want to chance it,  even though they know they are going against government advice. If there is a second peak as a result no one can claim they didn't know they were risking it. This might conveniently fit into the government's herd immunity plan, but no one is forcing these people to pile on a train to go sunbathing. 

People do have to take some responsibility but a lot of people look to the government for help and advise on what to do. So if they see the government say more and more things are ok to do then it’s not a surprise that people do that. Couple it with the Cummings scandal and it’s easy to see why this is happening. 
 

The fact that shielded people are coming out of isolation is strange, the virus will still be there so it seems like they just want to get the economy back going again. This what you get when you vote in a right wing Tory government. 

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The alert scale they’ve come up with is a load of rubbish and doesn’t fit a number of scenarios.

There at least needs to be an extra level for where we are now, cases are still falling, R is below one but deaths are still high, in other words things are better but it’s still quite close to the peak.

As it is level 3 ‘The virus is in circulation in the general population’ accurately describes where we are now. On the other hands level 4 half describes the situation now, if you believe some of the scientists (8000 cases a day, so transmission is still high) but on the other hand we’re being told very low levels of the population are currently getting infected and the R is below 1.

Yet we’re still at level 4 but relaxing measures meant for lower levels?

 

Edited by Deaf Nobby Burton
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10 minutes ago, Ozanne said:

People do have to take some responsibility but a lot of people look to the government for help and advise on what to do. So if they see the government say more and more things are ok to do then it’s not a surprise that people do that. Couple it with the Cummings scandal and it’s easy to see why this is happening. 

People are also doing things that the government have clearly said are not ok, like using public transport for non essential reasons.

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5 minutes ago, Deaf Nobby Burton said:

The alert scale they’ve come up with is a load of rubbish and doesn’t fit a number of scenarios.

There at least needs to be an extra level for where we are now, cases are still falling, R is below one but deaths are still high, in other words things are better but it’s still quite close to the peak.

As it is level 3 ‘The virus is in circulation in the general population’ accurately describes where we are now. On the other hands level 4 half describes the situation now, if you believe some of the scientists (8000 cases a day, so transmission is still high) but on the other hand we’re being told very low levels of the population are currently getting infected and the R is below 1.

Yet we’re still at level 4 but relaxing measures meant for lower levels?

 

That was my point the other day. 
 

 

5 minutes ago, Cream Soda said:

People are also doing things that the government have clearly said are not ok, like using public transport for non essential reasons.

Shocker, people are selfish. Maybe if their Chief Advisor hasn’t breach lockdown people wouldn’t feel the need to breach it themselves. Equally they could police this better too. It’s clearly a mix of people being jerks and the government giving such unclear messaging it promotes this type of behaviour. If we had a better government half the issues we are facing wouldn’t be an issue. 

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22 minutes ago, Zoo Music Girl said:

This is crazy. Just seen on Twitter that sports events returning and the vulnerable leaving their homes is supposed to be at alert level 1. We are at level 4.

Sports events returning without fans and with testing and certain distancing measures seems pretty low risk to me. Granted things could change but return of Bundesliga in Germany has so far been a success. 

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About that Brighton photo, I know its been said it is personal responsibility in those decisions, but the govt has a part to play as well.  In Boris's speech he said we can now go out to sunbathe and there are now no restrictions to travel so whilst I think those people are selfish I think the government have a lot to answer for.  Word on the street is that the R in Brighton is 1.7 so as a resident I am pretty fucked off.  

In terms of shielding there's no way I would change what I was doing (if I had to shield) based on the change in guidance yesterday, the government has not explained its working out and our death rate does not suggest they have this under control.  When this passes I will be with my placard outside of Westminster, at this rate its gonna be bloody massive with all their mistakes on it.  

And if the plan is for herd immunity and concerns of the economy they should just have some bollocks and say it.  

Edited by basicminds
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3 minutes ago, SalviaPlath said:

Sports events returning without fans and with testing and certain distancing measures seems pretty low risk to me. Granted things could change but return of Bundesliga in Germany has so far been a success. 

Yeah, JVT acknowledged that elite sports people make up a tiny fraction of the population, and with the extra measures, sport going ahead will have no meaningful impact in the R number regardless of what happens. The flip side is the positive impact of sport being back for people to enjoy outweighs any minimal negative impact quite significantly. Of course if crowds were involved that would be very different, but they aren’t.

Edited by Deaf Nobby Burton
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3 minutes ago, Ozanne said:

Maybe if their Chief Advisor hasn’t breach lockdown people wouldn’t feel the need to breach it themselves. 

Maybe, but it isn't an excuse. We all have a part to play in this,  we can't use someone else to justify our own actions. "He did it so I'm going to" is a very immature response. It's not all about politics either, some people don't follow any of this stuff  don't vote etc and will still be breaking the rules.

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