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Pyramid, Sunday: all women ...?


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I'm assuming that's bollocks as it's the Star, but if it was that'd be pretty cool. Plus it would make Piers Morgan explode, which would be even better.

I’d rather see a better spread of women across the top echelons of the lineup than just lumping them all into one day.

Cradling a framed picture of Gerry Cinnamon and softly whispering 'merit' over and over again.

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35 minutes ago, smogo said:

Looking just at Pyramid lineups, the Friday in 2011 was the last time:

U2, Morrissey, Biffy Clyro, BB King, Wu-Tang Clan, Two Door Cinema Club, Metronomy, Master Musicians of Joujouka

(Metronomy are of course only 80% male.)

Good research, thank you. So that's only one in the last 21 Pyramid days with an all male line up (if we count this with Metronomy, even though the reverse possibly wouldn't) despite an overwhelming majority of musicians being male. If we start thinking about every one of 7 acts on one day coming from a small minority (roughly, will vary with mixed groups) of the pool, the odds of it happening without it being forced are absolutely huge. Let's not force it and patronise women (many of whom deserve that stage on merit) in the process, let's ensure there is equality of opportunity to get into music. Then, the best women will rise (and have risen) to the top in exactly the same way males do, it's not their gender that determines whether they do or not. Of course, if there’s evidence of discrimination then that absolutely should be called out but imbalance on line-ups isn’t evidence of it.

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5 hours ago, chris_nre said:

There are plenty of female-fronted metal bands...Nightwish, Arch Enemy, Delain, Nemesea, Venom Prison (who played Glasto last year) etc.

Probably only Nightwish are big enough to get anywhere near the top of a UK festival bill.

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50 years ago 

jusr realised I’ve posted a photo of black sabbaths first album cover and I’m at 666 likes, the number of the beast . Scary or what? 

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1 hour ago, The Martini Police said:

Good research, thank you. So that's only one in the last 21 Pyramid days with an all male line up (if we count this with Metronomy, even though the reverse possibly wouldn't) despite an overwhelming majority of musicians being male. If we start thinking about every one of 7 acts on one day coming from a small minority (roughly, will vary with mixed groups) of the pool, the odds of it happening without it being forced are absolutely huge. Let's not force it and patronise women (many of whom deserve that stage on merit) in the process, let's ensure there is equality of opportunity to get into music. Then, the best women will rise (and have risen) to the top in exactly the same way males do, it's not their gender that determines whether they do or not. Of course, if there’s evidence of discrimination then that absolutely should be called out but imbalance on line-ups isn’t evidence of it.

Well, how do you know it isn’t? If the thread starts at acts with women not being given the same opportunity at gigs and showcases etc. then it’s gonna affect the number playing at fests.

Imo there should be positive discrimination and if we just waited for it to sort itself out then it’s unlikely to ever happen because no one will actually take the steps. Actively booking balanced bills should be a thing, but being all like “let’s hear it for the ladieeeeeessss!!” bloody well ain’t.

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2 minutes ago, dentalplan said:

but being all like “let’s hear it for the ladieeeeeessss!!” bloody well ain’t.

I feel like the festival booking an all day female line up would be more patronising than Jim Bowen on Bullseye when the female player has to play darts.

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2 minutes ago, dentalplan said:

Imo there should be positive discrimination and if we just waited for it to sort itself out then it’s unlikely to ever happen because no one will actually take the steps. Actively booking balanced bills should be a thing, but being all like “let’s hear it for the ladieeeeeessss!!” bloody well ain’t.

Do you not think that these big "gimmicky" steps can be important to make a clear statement that it can be done on the main stage at one of the biggest pop music festivals in the world?  Big steps for small gains kind of thing?

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Love it when people make the argument that women should get there on merit alone, as if all the male acts are there on merit. I mean, have you actually heard some of these guys?

Edit to say that I do believe all the female acts mentioned are absolutely there on merit. I'm just far from convinced the reverse is true!

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9 minutes ago, Zoo Music Girl said:

Love it when people make the argument that women should get there on merit alone, as if all the male acts are there on merit. I mean, have you actually heard some of these guys?

Edit to say that I do believe all the female acts mentioned are absolutely there on merit. I'm just far from convinced the reverse is true!

I think a lot of that is down to it being much harder for women to break through than men. Especially in the indie/rock world where women have to work their arses off just to get noticed whereas the NME will w*nk themselves silly over any old gang of blokes with guitars as long as they have decent haircuts.

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5 minutes ago, Hugh Jass said:

I think a lot of that is down to it being much harder for women to break through than men. Especially in the indie/rock world where women have to work their arses off just to get noticed whereas the NME will w*nk themselves silly over any old gang of blokes with guitars as long as they have decent haircuts.

As a man with terrible (i.e. no) hair this is why I also feel discriminated against in the music landscape. That and the fact I'm not a musician. But still.

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I've read some reaction to this, the most compelling of which has been those who argue for the concept of equality of opportunity, as opposed to the equality of outcome. This is something I have some time for - the idea that having quotas for things like gender is tokenism and actually demeans those who are most talented by affording them a place courtesy of their gender rather than skill.

Of course, this is an academic argument, and in reality it exists amongst a variety of issues, many of which have overlaps, all within a systemic culture that is - arguably - still overly patriarchal. The truth is always nuanced; discovered between the lines.

In as far as the festival context goes, however - it strikes me that festivals are opportunities. These are places where those who have talent can establish themselves as artists and gain a wider fanbase to propel them to something greater. The idea that 'equality of outcome' should apply here is ludicrous. Yes, it has (in my opinion) a place in award shows and exec level jobs, but jostling for a crowd at a music festival? Come on.

Large festivals like Glastonbury are ground level. It should be a place where a gender balance is sought after and celebrated. Should that balance be clustered into one evening? Why not, if it makes a statement and draws attention to an inequality that shouldn't exist?

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31 minutes ago, Quark said:

As a man with terrible (i.e. no) hair this is why I also feel discriminated against in the music landscape. That and the fact I'm not a musician. But still.

Were it not for the fact I’m bald and talentless I’d be headlining the Pyramid.

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1 hour ago, Quark said:

Do you not think that these big "gimmicky" steps can be important to make a clear statement that it can be done on the main stage at one of the biggest pop music festivals in the world?  Big steps for small gains kind of thing?

Showing what can be done? The festivals themselves preach about gender balance so completely not balancing as a brash statement seems ass-backwards. Particularly when it has been seamlessly making moves towards a strong and balanced lineup with female headliners on every stage every year and a truly balanced lineup is surely within reach.

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8 minutes ago, dentalplan said:

Showing what can be done? The festivals themselves preach about gender balance so completely not balancing as a brash statement seems ass-backwards. Particularly when it has been seamlessly making moves towards a strong and balanced lineup with female headliners on every stage every year and a truly balanced lineup is surely within reach.

When I say "what can be done" I mean in response to things like TRNSMT who say there aren't enough women in bands; you then have Glastonbury very pointedly saying "yes it can".

Long term I absolutely agree the aim is balance, as it should be.  But big statement pieces also have their uses.

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I'd like to suggest that this leak has probably fucked up what was a very good gesture. Not sure Glasto would have necessarily come out the gate and shouted "let's hear it for the girls!!!!" at the top of the Tor.

If Sunday had simply announced a run of:

all-female choir > Clairo > Haim > Diana Ross > Alicia Keys > Dua Lipa > Taylor Swift

Wouldn't we all have gone, "oh massive, what a great cast" and been happy it wasn't meat 'n potatoes acoustic/indie lads?

We shouldn't look past the fact that the fest has skewed much more pop friendly recently and that, honestly, female artists have been smashing it for ages and are better picks than yer Blossoms and whoever else these days.

I feel like it's sullied their idea by adding additional weight and a level of expectation as to what it all means. Maybe it's just a really good thing from a programming perspective and shouldn't be taken as a lightning rod for heated invective?

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11 hours ago, dentalplan said:

If it was ‘men day’ by design then yes it would be a gimmick. A weird one.

Maybe it will happen organically but the way this came about, it seemed like a planned thing. And that’s just degrading to have wonderful artists bundled together because of their gender, something that has nothing to do with their craft.

Is it not a bit presumptuous to assume that the only way all female acts could be booked for the Pyramid is if it was a planned thing?

HAIM, Diana Ross, Dua Lipa, Billie Eilush, Taylor Swift - would be one of the strongest Sunday line ups in years.

Maybe they're just trying to book the best acts.

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7 hours ago, Quark said:

Disagree.  I have a theory about this.

Nothing she says in that song is ironic. I think everyone agrees on that.

However, the song is called Ironic.

The fact that nothing she lists is ironic in a song called Ironic, is in itself ironic. That's the irony.

Meta as fuck.

Doesn’t work. That fact that the fella in the song waited all his life before flying for the first time and that flight crashes is the sole example of irony in the song, as flying is a safe method of transport 

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40 minutes ago, ProperTea said:

Is it not a bit presumptuous to assume that the only way all female acts could be booked for the Pyramid is if it was a planned thing?

HAIM, Diana Ross, Dua Lipa, Billie Eilush, Taylor Swift - would be one of the strongest Sunday line ups in years.

Maybe they're just trying to book the best acts.

Yeah I guess I presumed from the rumour that it was a planned feature. So did the people hailing it though, right? I was pretty much taking this argument as 'Supposing it was a deliberate decision...'.

There kinda would have to be some crazy restrictive tour schedules that limited those acts to having to be on the same stage on the same day, when you consider that it was pointed out earlier the last all-male day (that wasn't an all-male day) was 2011. It wouldn't be terribly diverse as far as mixing up genres to have a fantasy run like Dua Lipa>Billie Eilish>Taylor Swift either.

Anyway, I think this will just roll around in circles so I've pretty much said my peace with it. The festival aren't interested in doing it; I think that's because they realise they're almost at a balanced lineup and it's a backwards step, dunno why y'all think they wouldn't do it seeing as - as has been pointed out - they so easily could.

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7 hours ago, Quark said:

Disagree.  I have a theory about this.

Nothing she says in that song is ironic. I think everyone agrees on that.

However, the song is called Ironic.

The fact that nothing she lists is ironic in a song called Ironic, is in itself ironic. That's the irony.

Meta as fuck.

Oh god the meta.

giphy-18.gif

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