JK Rowling

[eFestivals]

17 hours ago, kaosmark2 said:

Trans people are far more likely to be abused than be abusers.

That's an irrelevant argument from the woman's side of things. Saying "others are abused worse than women" doesn't cut it.

There's people advocating that women are opened up to greater abuse than currently. It's hardly a surprise they're not keen.

 

Quote

That's not to say that the discussion about safe spaces shouldn't take place, and there are certain circumstances where excluding trans women might be justified but it's important that trans people have access to safe spaces for their own protection.

I agree.

The problem is that trans activists don't accept that argument, and want 'self-defined' to be the deciding factor.

Edited December 24, 2019 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

14 hours ago, feral chile said:

Hadn't seen this earlier.

I wholeheartedly agree with this, and I really hope some clever person works out how to do it without harm to anyone else.

that firstly involves the discussion that trans activists say shouldn't be allowed.  

The problem as I see it is not coming up with workable solutions, it's about being permitted by the trans community to have the discussion to get those workable solutions.

[eFestivals]

4 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

The problem is that trans activists don't accept that argument, and want 'self-defined' to be the deciding factor.

PS: at the end of the day, the trans argument is similar to this....

I'm a bloke and I don't abuse, and therefore I object to protections being put in place for women because they don't need protecting from me.

Would women object to that? Too right they would, and quite rightly. It's not about me, it's about what happens to women.

[feral chile]

24 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

PS: at the end of the day, the trans argument is similar to this....

I'm a bloke and I don't abuse, and therefore I object to protections being put in place for women because they don't need protecting from me.

Would women object to that? Too right they would, and quite rightly. It's not about me, it's about what happens to women.

Mmmm.....

That does get to the crux of the matter in an unintended way.

The trans argument would be "I'm a woman and I get abused, therefore I object to protections not being put in place for trans women because I need protection from both men and women".

Women see them as men but they don't see themselves as men.

Edited December 24, 2019 by feral chile

[eFestivals]

31 minutes ago, feral chile said:

The trans argument would be "I'm a woman and I get abused, therefore I object to protections not being put in place for trans women because I need protection from both men and women".

That's the me-me-me take on life, cos while that's true that's not the *only* thing which is true.

[feral chile]

1 hour ago, eFestivals said:

That's an irrelevant argument from the woman's side of things. Saying "others are abused worse than women" doesn't cut it.

There's people advocating that women are opened up to greater abuse than currently. It's hardly a surprise they're not keen.

 

I agree.

The problem is that trans activists don't accept that argument, and want 'self-defined' to be the deciding factor.

Why is "self defined" relevant to any safe spaces trans people are wxcluded from? They'd still be excluded but we'd be respecting their pronoun choice.

[feral chile]

1 minute ago, eFestivals said:

That's the me-me-me take on life, cos while that's true that's not the *only* thing which is true.

I'm pointing out that calling a trans woman a man, and using that to be her voice, is exactly why they're so pissed off.

Look, things are a big deal to some people that others can't grasp. 

Personally, my old fashioned feminism would do away with gender altogether. But it matters to some what their self defined gender is. (We all self define our gender btw, it's a social construct).

[eFestivals]

36 minutes ago, feral chile said:

Why is "self defined" relevant to any safe spaces trans people are wxcluded from? They'd still be excluded but we'd be respecting their pronoun choice.

because the self-defined they want is one where that self-defined is respected in all situations.

[kaosmark2]

1 hour ago, eFestivals said:

That's an irrelevant argument from the woman's side of things. Saying "others are abused worse than women" doesn't cut it.

There's people advocating that women are opened up to greater abuse than currently. It's hardly a surprise they're not keen.

 

I agree.

The problem is that trans activists don't accept that argument, and want 'self-defined' to be the deciding factor.

It is relevant, because some of the reason women are afraid of trans women is the perpetuation of the idea that they're men masquerading as women in order to abuse women. In terms of statistics, that's not true. In terms of anecdotal reports, about 80% of media stories about such incidents have been disproven.

Emphasising that trans women are far more likely to be in danger, than to be a danger, can both help alleviate transphobia and provide greater protections from the very few that masquerade as trans to be abusers.

I do realise how obnoxious trans activists can be though.

Did you see the thing from Lily Madigan (Labour's women's officer and trans)? She said that she's better placed to be a women's officer than a cis woman, because she's got the experience of growing up with gender dysphoria, and living as both genders and as trans, where a cis woman would "only" have the experiences of a woman.

All absolute nonsense. Even if someone is living as a woman now, they haven't had the experience of growing up with people trying to condition them into prioritising their looks, and various behavioural norms. It showed a complete lack of understanding of society, the patriarchy, and feminism.

[eFestivals]

33 minutes ago, feral chile said:

I'm pointing out that calling a trans woman a man, and using that to be her voice, is exactly why they're so pissed off.

that's not all of why they're pissed off.   

 

33 minutes ago, feral chile said:

Look, things are a big deal to some people that others can't grasp. 

that works on both sides of the argument.

The current issues are being caused because one side wants to rank their 'big deal' as more important than what is a big deal to other people.

 

33 minutes ago, feral chile said:

Personally, my old fashioned feminism would do away with gender altogether. But it matters to some what their self defined gender is. (We all self define our gender btw, it's a social construct).

We don't all self-define our gender. Our gender is firstly defined by the sex we're born as.
(except for any weirdos who decide to do the opposite).

I've never defined my own gender. I just 'am what I am'. It's not anything I've ever needed to consider.

And it's all very well saying people can self-define, but that can impact into the protections that exist for others.

[kaosmark2]

42 minutes ago, feral chile said:

Why is "self defined" relevant to any safe spaces trans people are wxcluded from? They'd still be excluded but we'd be respecting their pronoun choice.

Well as bunique said earlier, without requiring support to obtain a gender change, then people who are suffering from gender dysphoria won't get the actual help needed. Access to safe spaces just off self-ID seems dangerous to both the people doing so and those they'll encounter.

I'm more than happy to respect people request they're referred to by the pronoun of their choice, but in terms of access to spaces, treatment, etc. self-ID doesn't seem like the best solution.

[eFestivals]

1 minute ago, kaosmark2 said:

It is relevant, because some of the reason women are afraid of trans women is the perpetuation of the idea that they're men masquerading as women in order to abuse women.

I'd say that's a bullshit argument. While there's some who are transphobic for everything, most women don't much care how others choose to see themselves for most situations.

What they do care about is the protections they've acquired for very good reasons, and how those protections are undermined and weakened by allowing allowing all trans women to be fully-women.

The article someone linked to shows there is an extra risk, and women are allowed to not want themselves exposed to extra risk. It really is that simple.

 

1 minute ago, kaosmark2 said:

In terms of statistics, that's not true. In terms of anecdotal reports, about 80% of media stories about such incidents have been disproven.

In terms of statistics, it *IS* true. And bullshit articles 80% of the time doesn't mean women have to shut up about the other 20%.

 

1 minute ago, kaosmark2 said:

Emphasising that trans women are far more likely to be in danger, than to be a danger, can both help alleviate transphobia and provide greater protections from the very few that masquerade as trans to be abusers.

The transphobia that exists isn't likely to be rationalised away. It's an irrational fear. That women can be abused - and *are* abused - by trans women is not an irrational fear.

And you'll have to tell me how you reckon there can be greater protections for women from trans-abusers by allowing trans to self-define, otherwise you'll have to face up to the fact you're talking bollocks.

 

1 minute ago, kaosmark2 said:

I do realise how obnoxious trans activists can be though.

Did you see the thing from Lily Madigan (Labour's women's officer and trans)? She said that she's better placed to be a women's officer than a cis woman, because she's got the experience of growing up with gender dysphoria, and living as both genders and as trans, where a cis woman would "only" have the experiences of a woman.

All absolute nonsense. Even if someone is living as a woman now, they haven't had the experience of growing up with people trying to condition them into prioritising their looks, and various behavioural norms. It showed a complete lack of understanding of society, the patriarchy, and feminism.

Well exactly. When a trans women claims to be able to speak for women better than women can, the problem is not the women who object to that. 

[kaosmark2]

6 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

I'd say that's a bullshit argument. While there's some who are transphobic for everything, most women don't much care how others choose to see themselves for most situations.

What they do care about is the protections they've acquired for very good reasons, and how those protections are undermined and weakened by allowing allowing all trans women to be fully-women.

The article someone linked to shows there is an extra risk, and women are allowed to not want themselves exposed to extra risk. It really is that simple.

 

In terms of statistics, it *IS* true. And bullshit articles 80% of the time doesn't mean women have to shut up about the other 20%.

 

The transphobia that exists isn't likely to be rationalised away. It's an irrational fear. That women can be abused - and *are* abused - by trans women is not an irrational fear.

And you'll have to tell me how you reckon there can be greater protections for women from trans-abusers by allowing trans to self-define, otherwise you'll have to face up to the fact you're talking bollocks.

 

Well exactly. When a trans women claims to be able to speak for women better than women can, the problem is not the women who object to that. 

I'm not an advocate of self-ID. Protections are massively undermined by that, and with little benefit to anyone trans as well.

I do think discussions should be had about what point in a transition a trans person should get access to women-only spaces.

[eFestivals]

6 minutes ago, kaosmark2 said:

I do think discussions should be had

so do I - and the refusal to allow discussion is the biggest problem of all.

[kaosmark2]

16 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

so do I - and the refusal to allow discussion is the biggest problem of all.

Well yeah, shutting down debate and screaming "TERF" hasn't been helpful. The bigots haven't been helpful either. And lots of people who just want to raise the question get shut down by both extremes.

[feral chile]

1 hour ago, kaosmark2 said:

It is relevant, because some of the reason women are afraid of trans women is the perpetuation of the idea that they're men masquerading as women in order to abuse women. In terms of statistics, that's not true. In terms of anecdotal reports, about 80% of media stories about such incidents have been disproven.

Emphasising that trans women are far more likely to be in danger, than to be a danger, can both help alleviate transphobia and provide greater protections from the very few that masquerade as trans to be abusers.

I do realise how obnoxious trans activists can be though.

Did you see the thing from Lily Madigan (Labour's women's officer and trans)? She said that she's better placed to be a women's officer than a cis woman, because she's got the experience of growing up with gender dysphoria, and living as both genders and as trans, where a cis woman would "only" have the experiences of a woman.

All absolute nonsense. Even if someone is living as a woman now, they haven't had the experience of growing up with people trying to condition them into prioritising their looks, and various behavioural norms. It showed a complete lack of understanding of society, the patriarchy, and feminism.

I agree with most of this.

I dispute that someone growing up trans might have been accepted "by the patriarchy"  though.

I loathe that expression but it's quicker than writing an essay on social conditioning and peer pressure.

One of the things that surprises me is the willingness to lose masculine status, so I do wonder if they ever had it, and if that's why they feel happier identifying as female. But then no acceptance from women either.

I wish there was a way to be tolerant and inclusive, and not perpetuate the discrimination by refusing to accept their socially constructed identity.

[feral chile]

36 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

so do I - and the refusal to allow discussion is the biggest problem of all.

 

18 minutes ago, kaosmark2 said:

Well yeah, shutting down debate and screaming "TERF" hasn't been helpful. The bigots haven't been helpful either. And lots of people who just want to raise the question get shut down by both extremes.

Having employment ended isn't the same as refusing to allow discussion, Maya is free to discuss all she wants, but not free to work where she was while doing it. Stop making it more than it is.

As for screaming TERF, that's still discussing, right?

If you want to see exclusion and shutting people down, go on a rape support site as a man, and see how safe that space is for you.

Gender irritates the hell out of me. A person gets raped, it's awful, support needed. It's about power and cruelty.

Personally, I'd be happy with neutral gender pronouns and to get away from binary, divisive crap.

Just keep everyone safe and respected.

[feral chile]

OK, a person with a penis wants to penetrate forcibly another human.

How do we stop them?

What if they want to rape men?

WTF has their gender got to do with it?

I think a lot of this is hidden transphobia, in precisely the same way as concerns about straight people being harmed by gay predators is concealed homophobia. Or white people being scared of black people, old people of youths, Tories of socialists.

Bloody binary divisions.

Edited December 24, 2019 by feral chile

[kaosmark2]

9 minutes ago, feral chile said:

I agree with most of this.

I dispute that someone growing up trans might have been accepted "by the patriarchy"  though.

I loathe that expression but it's quicker than writing an essay on social conditioning and peer pressure.

One of the things that surprises me is the willingness to lose masculine status, so I do wonder if they ever had it, and if that's why they feel happier identifying as female. But then no acceptance from women either.

I wish there was a way to be tolerant and inclusive, and not perpetuate the discrimination by refusing to accept their socially constructed identity.

Growing up trans is different from growing up as one gender then changing. Growing up trans is also different from growing up male, or growing up female.

I've no experience of what it's like to be brought up female, with the different pressures and social constructs around who and what you're expected to be. I'm confident that Lily Madigan doesn't either.

[feral chile]

8 minutes ago, kaosmark2 said:

Growing up trans is different from growing up as one gender then changing. Growing up trans is also different from growing up male, or growing up female.

I've no experience of what it's like to be brought up female, with the different pressures and social constructs around who and what you're expected to be. I'm confident that Lily Madigan doesn't either.

If they grew up as one gender they wouldn't change, now would they? It's a social construct.

Something has caused dissonance.

There's probably no such thing as "brought up female". In a universal sense, I mean.

What's "female"?

Edited to add:

I believe this is at the very heart of the issue, as feminists/most women historically play down gender stereotypes, so just "happen" to be female but can do wtf they like, not just absurdly gendered activities.

Then along come trans people emphasizing gender.

Edited December 24, 2019 by feral chile

[kaosmark2]

7 minutes ago, feral chile said:

I believe this is at the very heart of the issue, as feminists/most women historically play down gender stereotypes, so just "happen" to be female but can do wtf they like, not just absurdly gendered activities.

Then along come trans people emphasizing gender.

This.

[feral chile]

1 hour ago, eFestivals said:

that's not all of why they're pissed off.   

 

that works on both sides of the argument.

The current issues are being caused because one side wants to rank their 'big deal' as more important than what is a big deal to other people.

 

We don't all self-define our gender. Our gender is firstly defined by the sex we're born as.
(except for any weirdos who decide to do the opposite).

I've never defined my own gender. I just 'am what I am'. It's not anything I've ever needed to consider.

And it's all very well saying people can self-define, but that can impact into the protections that exist for others.

No, most of us don't. Otherwise, most women would see the advantage in switching to men.

So if someone chooses to become "the lesser sex", there must be powerful dissonance at work.

As a non trans, I assume that we think we just are male or female, and for most of us there is no dissonance, so it just is.

I wish we had a trans member who could explain. My understanding of what gender is (a made up set of social rules) obviously doesn't match theirs, for them to go through everything they go through.

[kaosmark2]

1 hour ago, feral chile said:

No, most of us don't. Otherwise, most women would see the advantage in switching to men.

So if someone chooses to become "the lesser sex", there must be powerful dissonance at work.

As a non trans, I assume that we think we just are male or female, and for most of us there is no dissonance, so it just is.

I wish we had a trans member who could explain. My understanding of what gender is (a made up set of social rules) obviously doesn't match theirs, for them to go through everything they go through.

Well more women transition to men than vice versa. But it's the men who transition who are talked about more.

[feral chile]

5 hours ago, kaosmark2 said:

Well as bunique said earlier, without requiring support to obtain a gender change, then people who are suffering from gender dysphoria won't get the actual help needed. Access to safe spaces just off self-ID seems dangerous to both the people doing so and those they'll encounter.

I'm more than happy to respect people request they're referred to by the pronoun of their choice, but in terms of access to spaces, treatment, etc. self-ID doesn't seem like the best solution.

Well we have exceptions in the Equality Act already, women's refuges being an obvious one that springs to mind.

I don't really see public toilets as safe spaces in the same way.

[feral chile]

2 hours ago, kaosmark2 said:

Well more women transition to men than vice versa. But it's the men who transition who are talked about more.

Interesting, I hadn't realised that.

I hadn't heard of Alex Drummond before bunique mentioned her, had you?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/there-no-legal-bars-woman-10297113.amp