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wilby-wilbert

JK Rowling

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J.K. Rowling (@jk_rowling) Tweeted:
Dress however you please.
Call yourself whatever you like.
Sleep with any consenting adult who’ll have you. 
Live your best life in peace and security. 
But force women out of their jobs for stating that sex is real? 
#IStandWithMaya #ThisIsNotADrill

Thoughts? 

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This will end well. Why bring that negative shit here. I can go to Twitter if I want to read the dregs. Not even remotely Glastonbury related. 

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3 minutes ago, H.M.V said:

This will end well. Why bring that negative shit here. I can go to Twitter if I want to read the dregs. Not even remotely Glastonbury related. 

 'twas accidentally posted to this section.' twasnt meant to be negativity. Was just trying to open a conversation on something that is clearly a relevant and divisive topic.

Happy for the thread to be moved to the correct place. 

Not sure how the topic can be described as "the dregs" however. Seems odd. 

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Have you ever spent any time on Twitter? You posted a link to it. I tend to find the worst of humanity on Twitter hence my dregs comment. 

Anyway, hopefully @eFestivals can move it. 

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Just now, H.M.V said:

Have you ever spent any time on Twitter? You posted a link to it. I tend to find the worst of humanity on Twitter hence my dregs comment. 

Anyway, hopefully @eFestivals can move it. 

I havent spent any length of time on twitter. I dont have a twitter account. Im not sure if you're referring to JK Rowling as "negative" and "the dregs" or if you meant the people criticising her. 

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8 hours ago, wilby-wilbert said:

J.K. Rowling (@jk_rowling) Tweeted:
Dress however you please.
Call yourself whatever you like.
Sleep with any consenting adult who’ll have you. 
Live your best life in peace and security. 
But force women out of their jobs for stating that sex is real? 
#IStandWithMaya #ThisIsNotADrill

Thoughts? 

Mmmm....there are arguments both sides, I think it's easy to say sex is real if you don't feel like you have the wrong biological bits.

Sciencitific take, difference between sex and gender etc. below:

https://www.who.int/genomics/gender/en/index1.html

 

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42 minutes ago, feral chile said:

difference between sex and gender

Maya was recognising the difference between sex and gender. 

Some people - not Maya - are trying to merge sex and gender to be the same thing, and take offence if someone like Maya tries to start a discussion on why they think the difference should be acknowledged.

I reckon there might be some similarities here with attempted debates about levels of immigration, where one side attempted to shut down all discussion by calling it racist.

And which I think means there isn't a settled view about it within society, and the discussion isn't really shut down but instead becomes a hidden sore where the worst of ideas are allowed to fester.

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3 hours ago, eFestivals said:

Maya was recognising the difference between sex and gender. 

Some people - not Maya - are trying to merge sex and gender to be the same thing, and take offence if someone like Maya tries to start a discussion on why they think the difference should be acknowledged.

I reckon there might be some similarities here with attempted debates about levels of immigration, where one side attempted to shut down all discussion by calling it racist.

And which I think means there isn't a settled view about it within society, and the discussion isn't really shut down but instead becomes a hidden sore where the worst of ideas are allowed to fester.

We've discussed this before. Since I'm not transgender, I can't understand what it must be like. I feel like I'm me first and just happen to have my bits. So I accept them, even though I'm from a masculine, mining community  environment and worked in male dominated jobs. I also realised last time we spoke that at home, I was socialised in a non traditional way. Toy steam engines, cars, action figures etc. 

So my feminist beef was always to do with muscling in on traditionally male roles, not gender identity per se.

If you think there's no such thing as gender outside a social construct, you might not want to accept females with a penis, or males with breasts.

Feminism is being needlessly set up as opposition to trans concerns because of this. We don't want to be defined by our biology.

But neither does the trans community. Though they do still want to be defined.

Edited by feral chile

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"Employment Judge Tayler acknowledged that there is nothing to stop the claimant campaigning against the proposed revisions to the Gender Recognition Act or, expressing her opinion that there should be some spaces that are restricted to women assigned female at birth. However, she can do so without insisting on calling transwomen men. It is the fact that her belief necessarily involves violating the dignity of others which means it is not protected under the Equality Act 2010.”"

https://amp.theguardian.com/society/2019/dec/18/judge-rules-against-charity-worker-who-lost-job-over-transgender-tweets

So, the judge is not commenting on her belief, but her behaviour, which is discrimination.

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9 minutes ago, Rufus Gwertigan said:

So is Rowling telling me its OK to sleep with my sister? 

?

I'm not following your argument.

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4 minutes ago, Rufus Gwertigan said:

She says sleep with any consenting adult that will have you. 

your sister is consenting to sleeping with you?

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1 hour ago, Rufus Gwertigan said:

She says sleep with any consenting adult that will have you. 

Ah I see.

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1 hour ago, LJS said:

your sister is consenting to sleeping with you?

But if she did, is it then ok? 

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18 minutes ago, feral chile said:

But if she did, is it then ok? 

Sorry to railroad the thread. My comment is usually taken as a throwaway but is not as flippant as it apoears. I was once in a seminar and we were discussing the case at the time of a sex therapist getting struck off for refusing to counsel a day couple. The argument dragged in the consenting adult points and I poppedin the comment as to whether they would counsel  an incest couple. What started as a joke became a very interesting debate. 

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2 hours ago, Rufus Gwertigan said:

Sorry to railroad the thread. My comment is usually taken as a throwaway but is not as flippant as it apoears. I was once in a seminar and we were discussing the case at the time of a sex therapist getting struck off for refusing to counsel a day couple. The argument dragged in the consenting adult points and I poppedin the comment as to whether they would counsel  an incest couple. What started as a joke became a very interesting debate. 

Yes I can imagine. I'm an only child, so consent isn't an issue.

It's working out where the boundaries are, socially, legally, scientifically, psychologically...

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10 hours ago, eFestivals said:

Maya was recognising the difference between sex and gender. 

Some people - not Maya - are trying to merge sex and gender to be the same thing, and take offence if someone like Maya tries to start a discussion on why they think the difference should be acknowledged.

I reckon there might be some similarities here with attempted debates about levels of immigration, where one side attempted to shut down all discussion by calling it racist.

And which I think means there isn't a settled view about it within society, and the discussion isn't really shut down but instead becomes a hidden sore where the worst of ideas are allowed to fester.

From what I've read, Maya was saying that only sex counted, and she would refuse to recognise a self defined gender that didn't match biological sex.

Have I got that right? If so, it's discrimination under the Equality Act.

 

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19 hours ago, feral chile said:

"Employment Judge Tayler acknowledged that there is nothing to stop the claimant campaigning against the proposed revisions to the Gender Recognition Act or, expressing her opinion that there should be some spaces that are restricted to women assigned female at birth. However, she can do so without insisting on calling transwomen men. It is the fact that her belief necessarily involves violating the dignity of others which means it is not protected under the Equality Act 2010.”"

https://amp.theguardian.com/society/2019/dec/18/judge-rules-against-charity-worker-who-lost-job-over-transgender-tweets

So, the judge is not commenting on her belief, but her behaviour, which is discrimination.

I did a bit of digging yesterday, and read some of what she'd posted. At points she uses male/female and men/women to differentiate, but then seems to slip back to what appears to be 'default' language of men/women when she probably meant male/female.

If you're someone who is looking to be offended then how she mixed her defining words would be offensive, but it read to me as an error with her wording rather than an attempt at slurring. And given how whether a person used men/women or male/female hasn't mattered for most living people for most of their lives, I reckon it's an easy slip to make.

As for the sort of issues she was highlighting, the way things currently work in practice in places like prisons is how she says it should be and not how that judge ruled.

However it needs to be noted that the judge was ruling on a civil matter and not giving a criminal judgement - but even so it highlights that the system is currently a fuck-up, and that the only way it stops being a fuck up is to bring the issues out into the open for discussion and not by shouting down discussion as transphobic. After all, the trans side hasn't won the argument yet and really all they are doing is sweeping the unsettled issues under the carpet themselves.

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13 hours ago, feral chile said:

From what I've read, Maya was saying that only sex counted, and she would refuse to recognise a self defined gender that didn't match biological sex.

Have I got that right? If so, it's discrimination under the Equality Act.

 

Prisons and the criminal justice system don't recognise self-defined genders and the govt isn't in court for discrimination under the equality act.

And no, (from what I saw) I don't think Maya was saying only sex counted, but was highlighting that sometimes (she thinks) it should count.

As it does in prisons.

Like I say, where we are currently is a fuck-up. It won't get sorted by shutting down discussion. ;) 

Edited by eFestivals

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7 hours ago, eFestivals said:

I did a bit of digging yesterday, and read some of what she'd posted. At points she uses male/female and men/women to differentiate, but then seems to slip back to what appears to be 'default' language of men/women when she probably meant male/female.

If you're someone who is looking to be offended then how she mixed her defining words would be offensive, but it read to me as an error with her wording rather than an attempt at slurring. And given how whether a person used men/women or male/female hasn't mattered for most living people for most of their lives, I reckon it's an easy slip to make.

As for the sort of issues she was highlighting, the way things currently work in practice in places like prisons is how she says it should be and not how that judge ruled.

However it needs to be noted that the judge was ruling on a civil matter and not giving a criminal judgement - but even so it highlights that the system is currently a fuck-up, and that the only way it stops being a fuck up is to bring the issues out into the open for discussion and not by shouting down discussion as transphobic. After all, the trans side hasn't won the argument yet and really all they are doing is sweeping the unsettled issues under the carpet themselves.

 

7 hours ago, eFestivals said:

Prisons and the criminal justice system don't recognise self-defined genders and the govt isn't in court for discrimination under the equality act.

And no, (from what I saw) I don't think Maya was saying only sex counted, but was highlighting that sometimes (she thinks) it should count.

As it does in prisons.

Like I say, where we are currently is a fuck-up. It won't get sorted by shutting down discussion. ;) 

I hadn't really been following it closely, I've assumed that she was sacked for breaching the Equality Act (gender), took the employer to tribunal for breaching the Equality Act (belief), and the tribunal found against her.

I don't think it was about discussion per se?

I think I said before, we need to find a compromise. Prisons are a difficult one.

Public toilets are another matter entirely. There's nothing stopping any man using a ladies toilet, and no physical protection for women if a man enters one for the intention of rape. No matter what gender they call themselves. And no real reason not to have unisex toilet cubicles.

 

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