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6 Music Festival 2020


Jon F
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40 minutes ago, xxialac said:

Keep despairing then.

I’m against a female only line up on that or any day, yes.
 

I’d be against a male only line up on that or any day, equally. 
 

What possible reason is there to ever segregate by gender when gender has nothing to do with ability?

Am I right in thinking we had a not dissimilar discussion last year? About the Latitude line up?

 

Course, this is kinda different. Because you are complaining about an all female line up for a gig celebrating INTERNATIONAL WOMEN'S DAY! An international day which has been going since 1910 which celebrates WOMEN. And raises awareness of all the issues WOMEN still have in this unequal society! SURELY you can see how odd it would be for a gig celebrating INTERNATIONAL WOMEN'S DAY to have an act on the bill who has a penis or identifies as male, no?!?

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Just now, retromoz said:

Am I right in thinking we had a not dissimilar discussion last year? About the Latitude line up?

 

Course, this is kinda different. Because you are complaining about an all female line up for a gig celebrating INTERNATIONAL WOMEN'S DAY! An international day which has been going since 1910 which celebrates WOMEN. And raises awareness of all the issues WOMEN still have in this unequal society! SURELY you can see how odd it would be for a gig celebrating INTERNATIONAL WOMEN'S DAY to have an act on the bill who has a penis or identifies as male, no?!?

I'm not 'complaining'. I'm not 'angry'. I just don't agree. And I'm trying to discuss this in a pleasant way, whereas all I see is caps lock ranting.

Fundamentally I don't think the way to highlight women's unfair treatment at the hands of men, which absolutely exists, is by designing an event that excludes men.

By having an event that is 'Women Only' all you are doing is reinforcing the notion that gender is somehow relevant to musical ability and that gender segregation is good. This is the opposite message to what should be the norm, which is that it doesn't matter one feck what gender you are - talent is spread equally across all human beings. 

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3 minutes ago, xxialac said:

I'm not 'complaining'. I'm not 'angry'. I just don't agree. And I'm trying to discuss this in a pleasant way, whereas all I see is caps lock ranting.

Fundamentally I don't think the way to highlight women's unfair treatment at the hands of men, which absolutely exists, is by designing an event that excludes men.

By having an event that is 'Women Only' all you are doing is reinforcing the notion that gender is somehow relevant to musical ability and that gender segregation is good. This is the opposite message to what should be the norm, which is that it doesn't matter one feck what gender you are - talent is spread equally across all human beings. 

I apologise for my use of capitals that is offending you. This is due to frustration on my part. Because, once again, you are COMPLETELY missing the point! The gig is celebrating INTERNATIONAL WOMEN'S DAY! A day that has happened on the 8th of March for 109 years! A gig celebrating that fact is not going to have men in it, is it? Just as if there is a gig on commemorating international men's day raising men's issues wouldn't have any women on, would it? 

 

Any other disagreement you have with the concept of this all female gig completely missed the point of why 6 music are doing this. 

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1 minute ago, retromoz said:

I apologise for my use of capitals that is offending you. This is due to frustration on my part. Because, once again, you are COMPLETELY missing the point! The gig is celebrating INTERNATIONAL WOMEN'S DAY! A day that has happened on the 8th of March for 109 years! A gig celebrating that fact is not going to have men in it, is it? Just as if there is a gig on commemorating international men's day raising men's issues wouldn't have any women on, would it? 

 

Any other disagreement you have with the concept of this all female gig completely missed the point of why 6 music are doing this. 

Your use of capitals doesn't offend me. In tribute though I'll have a go!

INTERNATIONAL WOMEN'S DAY is "a collective day of global celebration and A CALL FOR GENDER PARITY" (their words, not mine).

The most fitting way to do this would be to have a line up that does exactly that i.e. that shows you can run a great event with GENDER PARITY because GENDER SHOULDN'T BE A FACTOR IN WHO IS CHOSEN TO PLAY ANY GIG AT ANY TIME EVER. 

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1 minute ago, xxialac said:

Your use of capitals doesn't offend me. In tribute though I'll have a go!

INTERNATIONAL WOMEN'S DAY is "a collective day of global celebration and A CALL FOR GENDER PARITY" (their words, not mine).

The most fitting way to do this would be to have a line up that does exactly that i.e. that shows you can run a great event with GENDER PARITY because GENDER SHOULDN'T BE A FACTOR IN WHO IS CHOSEN TO PLAY ANY GIG AT ANY TIME EVER. 

One could argue that having an all female line up IS a step towards gender parity, as most gigs and festivals in the past HAVE discriminated against women. And still do.

 

But, if I remember correctly, you dismissed this line of arguement last time. So I will now not waste my time trying to convince you of the inherent impartiality of society again. As there is no point. 

 

Have a nice evening, sir.

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10 hours ago, xxialac said:

Your use of capitals doesn't offend me. In tribute though I'll have a go!

INTERNATIONAL WOMEN'S DAY is "a collective day of global celebration and A CALL FOR GENDER PARITY" (their words, not mine).

The most fitting way to do this would be to have a line up that does exactly that i.e. that shows you can run a great event with GENDER PARITY because GENDER SHOULDN'T BE A FACTOR IN WHO IS CHOSEN TO PLAY ANY GIG AT ANY TIME EVER. 

Come on, this is just one venue across multiple venues across multiple days that is celebrating women musicians, on a day that is fitting to do so. 

It isn’t ‘Women only’, as I’m certain that there will be many men playing key roles at the Roundhouse on the night; performing on stage, roadies, light / sound engineers and even in the audience.

And the festival itself has met your ‘Gender Parity’ requirement with a fairly even spread of male / female acts across the three days (not sure what exact % split as I got bored counting) so surely we can agree that this is ok?

Out of interest, would you be offended if 6 music decided to celebrate folk music only  on one of the nights, because it was international folk music day?

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10 hours ago, xxialac said:

Your use of capitals doesn't offend me. In tribute though I'll have a go!

INTERNATIONAL WOMEN'S DAY is "a collective day of global celebration and A CALL FOR GENDER PARITY" (their words, not mine).

The most fitting way to do this would be to have a line up that does exactly that i.e. that shows you can run a great event with GENDER PARITY because GENDER SHOULDN'T BE A FACTOR IN WHO IS CHOSEN TO PLAY ANY GIG AT ANY TIME EVER. 

Ok Laurence fox 

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2 minutes ago, snoochie1981 said:

Come on, this is just one venue across multiple venues across multiple days that is celebrating women musicians, on a day that is fitting to do so. 

It isn’t ‘Women only’, as I’m certain that there will be many men playing key roles at the Roundhouse on the night; performing on stage, roadies, light / sound engineers and even in the audience.

And the festival itself has met your ‘Gender Parity’ requirement with a fairly even spread of male / female acts across the three days (not sure what exact % split as I got bored counting) so surely we can agree that this is ok?

Out of interest, would you be offended if 6 music decided to celebrate folk music only  on one of the nights, because it was international folk music day?

To disagree with something is not to be offended by that thing. You are conflating two different emotions.

It's women only in the sense that the prominent roles (performers) go to women, which is no less of a problem than in other areas of life where there is clearly persistent gender inequality e.g. in the people that represent us in parliament (at the start of this century less than 15% of MPs were women and it's still low). If the cleaners, janitors etc in parliament are women that doesn't overcome the problem.

It's a weak analogy to say having a folk-only day is the same as having a women-only day. People enjoy folk music and identify as folk music fans so it would cater to that type of audience whereas people are not fans of male music or fans of female music.

You wouldn't have a 'men only day' which would be discriminatory and divisive and you shouldn't have a 'women-only day' either.

People who pay to watch music enjoy watching male and female performers equally and there is no argument for gender segregation in music.

 

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12 hours ago, xxialac said:

Keep despairing then.

I’m against a female only line up on that or any day, yes.
 

I’d be against a male only line up on that or any day, equally. 
 

What possible reason is there to ever segregate by gender when gender has nothing to do with ability?

No one tell him about the Bombay Bicycle Club, Squid and Warmduscher gig on that same day

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The irony is I'm promoting gender equality but am seeing responses as though I'm arguing against it.

This is a case about *how* we get to gender equality. Ghettoising the sexes will get us there more slowly.

Separating events by sex is unnecessarily divisive. It creates a divide that pervasively gives the audience the impression that seeing women performers and men performers is somehow different, when in practice it has zero effect on the quality of the music.

It would be as ridiculous as all the women sitting together in parliament. That would have the subconscious effect in society that women are fundamentally different to men in terms of their ability when they're not.

 

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3 minutes ago, stereodista said:

Haha, was just about to mention that! 

Or the fact that blokes play in Anna Meredith’s band (among others, I assume).

There is nuance in my points, which you are choosing to ignore.

Is the lineup broadly 50/50 men/women? Yes? That shows the festival doesn't discriminate. That's a good thing.

Is that gig you are referring to being described divisively as an 'all-male line up'/'celebration of men'? No? Well it's not unnecessarily highlighting gender difference then. That's a good thing.

Is one of the gigs described divisively as an 'all-female line up'/'celebration of women'? Yes? Well it's unnecessarily highlighting gender difference then. And there is no justifiable argument to do that.

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23 minutes ago, xxialac said:

There is nuance in my points, which you are choosing to ignore.

Is the lineup broadly 50/50 men/women? Yes? That shows the festival doesn't discriminate. That's a good thing.

Is that gig you are referring to being described divisively as an 'all-male line up'/'celebration of men'? No? Well it's not unnecessarily highlighting gender difference then. That's a good thing.

Is one of the gigs described divisively as an 'all-female line up'/'celebration of women'? Yes? Well it's unnecessarily highlighting gender difference then. And there is no justifiable argument to do that.

In fairness, suggesting this is an event which ‘forbids men’ – as was your opening gambit – lacks much nuance; not least when it very evidently doesn’t. They won’t be enforcing a strict ‘women only’ policy upon entrance to the Roundhouse now, will they? 

And the difference obviously does still need to be highlighted, as a) Primavera remains a relative anomaly when it comes to gender parity in festival booking, even if they’re quite rightly looking at ‘the new normal [a]s now just normal’, and b) International Women’s Day is still necessary for multitudinous reasons I’m sure you’re well aware of. 

Much like 6 Music, their festival – I would agree – doesn’t discriminate, although their Sunday night Roundhouse show – I would disagree – is not discriminatory in the context of the day it’s taking place on. And this is before you’ve taken into account the fact that every other gig (barring the BBC one) ‘shows you can run a great event with GENDER PARITY’, to recycle your own words. 

In any case, ‘Bloke Laments All-Female Line Up in 2020’ is not a good look but heck, if that’s your chosen hill... 

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1 minute ago, stereodista said:

In fairness, suggesting this is an event which ‘forbids men’ – as was your opening gambit – lacks much nuance; not least when it very evidently doesn’t. They won’t be enforcing a strict ‘women only’ policy upon entrance to the Roundhouse now, will they? 

And the difference obviously does still need to be highlighted, as a) Primavera remains a relative anomaly when it comes to gender parity in festival booking, even if they’re quite rightly looking at ‘the new normal [a]s now just normal’, and b) International Women’s Day is still necessary for multitudinous reasons I’m sure you’re well aware of. 

Much like 6 Music, their festival – I would agree – doesn’t discriminate, although their Sunday night Roundhouse show – I would disagree – is not discriminatory in the context of the day it’s taking place on. And this is before you’ve taken into account the fact that every other gig (barring the BBC one) ‘shows you can run a great event with GENDER PARITY’, to recycle your own words. 

In any case, ‘Bloke Laments All-Female Line Up in 2020’ is not a good look but heck, if that’s your chosen hill... 

Thanks for engaging in a thoughtful way, instead of the previous approach of 'as a man, you have no voice in discussing gender issues'. I'm working on gender party in my day job, so I'm only interested in how best to get there.

You make some good points. And I shouldn't have written 'forbids men', was a poor choice of words.

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1 hour ago, xxialac said:

To disagree with something is not to be offended by that thing. You are conflating two different emotions.

It's women only in the sense that the prominent roles (performers) go to women, which is no less of a problem than in other areas of life where there is clearly persistent gender inequality e.g. in the people that represent us in parliament (at the start of this century less than 15% of MPs were women and it's still low). If the cleaners, janitors etc in parliament are women that doesn't overcome the problem.

It's a weak analogy to say having a folk-only day is the same as having a women-only day. People enjoy folk music and identify as folk music fans so it would cater to that type of audience whereas people are not fans of male music or fans of female music.

You wouldn't have a 'men only day' which would be discriminatory and divisive and you shouldn't have a 'women-only day' either.

People who pay to watch music enjoy watching male and female performers equally and there is no argument for gender segregation in music.

 

You have made a lot of sweeping statements in your posts to back your argument which I don’t think you can really prove.

People can be mostly into women-only vocalists as much as they can be mostly into folk music, I have a couple of friends that fit the former. Remember, women and men’s voices are on the whole different and so doesn’t have to be declared sexism to prefer one or the other.

Others may disagree but I wouldn’t be adverse to having a men only day on International Men’s Day. After all, there are a number of male specific issues that it would be helpful to raise as part of it. I also wouldn’t be adverse to all women MPs sitting together in parliament on International Women’s Day, it would definitely highlight the imbalance that you mention above and it would be a good way to promote MPs working with other MPs from different parties.

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I think you're all massively and unnecessarily over-analysing this.

It's just a nice way for the festival to loop some great acts together and celebrate female artists on a day that's designed to celebrate women. That's literally it. 6Music and BBC Radio in general always does something for International Women's Day, even if it's a few programmes, and this year it just happens to fall amongst their festival dates.

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Came to see people's thoughts on the line-up but of course it's another discussion about gender equality... lost count of the amount of all-male line-ups I've seen over the years! 

Really fancy the Sunday myself. Nadine Shah, Kate Tempest, Kim Gordon, Anna Meredith... top line-up for about £30.

Bit disappointing that you only have access to one venue per ticket but still good value.

I've not been since the first one in Manchester - is getting tickets usually tricky?

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2 minutes ago, snoochie1981 said:

You have made a lot of sweeping statements in your posts to back your argument which I don’t think you can really prove.

People can be mostly into women-only vocalists as much as they can be mostly into folk music, I have a couple of friends that fit the former. Remember, women and men’s voices are on the whole different and so doesn’t have to be declared sexism to prefer one or the other.

Others may disagree but I wouldn’t be adverse to having a men only day on International Men’s Day. After all, there are a number of male specific issues that it would be helpful to raise as part of it. I also wouldn’t be adverse to all women MPs sitting together in parliament on International Women’s Day, it would definitely highlight the imbalance that you mention above and it would be a good way to promote MPs working with other MPs from different parties.

Fair enough. Interested in your view.

Not sure what sweeping statements you are referring to. And I'm surprised to hear there are people out there that have such strong preferences for male or female-fronted bands.

But your perspective is helpful.

 

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1 minute ago, jannybruck said:

I think you're all massively and unnecessarily over-analysing this.

It's just a nice way for the festival to loop some great acts together and celebrate female artists on a day that's designed to celebrate women. That's literally it. 6Music and BBC Radio in general always does something for International Women's Day, even if it's a few programmes, and this year it just happens to fall amongst their festival dates.

This tbh

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1 minute ago, jannybruck said:

I think you're all massively and unnecessarily over-analysing this.

It's just a nice way for the festival to loop some great acts together and celebrate female artists on a day that's designed to celebrate women. That's literally it. 6Music and BBC Radio in general always does something for International Women's Day, even if it's a few programmes, and this year it just happens to fall amongst their festival dates.

I'm the only one massively and unnecessarily over-analysing this : )

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1 minute ago, emmanuel said:

But this happens almost every day at almost every venue... we have to be fair.

Yes, it does and it's a terrible problem that needs to be addressed. Don't think that's under dispute. Venue and fest bookers should commit to making sure over the medium term they have even gender splits and should be transparent on their numbers.

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23 minutes ago, Zoo Music Girl said:

I've not been since the first one in Manchester - is getting tickets usually tricky?

Liverpool last year was fairly easy to get tickets but the popular stuff sold out within a day or so. Because it's London and there's some fairly 'name' artists involved I'm guessing most things will go quickly.

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1 minute ago, jannybruck said:

Liverpool last year was fairly easy to get tickets but the popular stuff sold out within a day or so. Because it's London and there's some fairly 'name' artists involved I'm guessing most things will go quickly.

Yeah that's my thinking too. Will be online at 10am trying anyway! 

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