efests Exit Poll

[Ayrshire Chris]

12 minutes ago, Benja100 said:

I think politics is too divided now.  Lets try to be positive and inclusive and bring people together rather than exaserbating, obsessing, despairing

You actually don't know what was going through the minds of every voter or their motivations.  Whether they were right or wrong, they likely see things very differently to you.  Maybe they are afraid of more austerity and saw Labour's spending plans as a further risk to that.  It certainly involved a lot of borrowing.  There was certainly a lot of comment like that from the doorstep & polls.  That isn't a selfish motivation.  Maybe they thought Corbyn was tainted by his past associations and unfit to lead.  That is not a selfish reason.  I am not defending BoJo please be clear I know he's a wrong'un.  There was certainly a lot of association with dubious actors, too much for it to be some media smear and a lot of it fact based although let's not get into that too much today

If you spend the next 5 years thinking half the country are selfish, who does that help, that is not a positive thought to obsess over

Labour and Momentum and Corbyn need to own this IMO, they did not play this well and blaming & resenting the electorate who are your neighbors and people in the street, is not going to help things heal

Peace out x

Some good points there

and I thought you would ‘fudge’ the issues!?

[Crazyfool01]

3 minutes ago, Ayrshire Chris said:

Some good points there

and I thought you would ‘fudge’ the issues!?

See the fudge post  

[Alex DeLarge]

2 hours ago, fatyeti24 said:

I can't see Labour moving much more central with half a million newcomers/Momentum still in their ranks.  They aren't just going to give up on their project because Corbyn failed.  I'd even be surprised to see acknowledgement of failure on his/their part - it hasn't happened yet.  It'll be the fault of someone else.  The fact Corbyn is still the leader speaks volumes - he doesn't feel the need to step down.  His 'period of reflection' should be taking place over a flask of tea at his allotment and he should get out of the way; how big does a defeat need to be before you recognise it as such.

Corbynism is over, and until Labour moves on, so are they.

The attitude of some is that Corbyn can never fail, only be failed.

[FuzzyDunlop]

38 minutes ago, Benja100 said:

If you spend the next 5 years thinking half the country are selfish, who does that help, that is not a positive thought to obsess over

I agree to some extent, but to me it's about appealling to that selfishness. I.e. What will they get out of it? 

Someone at work voted labour after seeing the below meme. Not to save the NHS for any other reason than they couldn't afford the healthcare. Not for the greater good. We need to appeal to that.

My mate, (a nurse) said on FB,

"Most nurses I speak to either don't vote, don't know who to vote for or vote Labour because they just don't vote tory.

How are they so uninterested?"

[Superscally]

36 minutes ago, Benja100 said:

I think politics is too divided now.  Lets try to be positive and inclusive and bring people together rather than exaserbating, obsessing, despairing

You actually don't know what was going through the minds of every voter or their motivations.  Whether they were right or wrong, they likely see things very differently to you.  Maybe they are afraid of more austerity and saw Labour's spending plans as a further risk to that.  It certainly involved a lot of borrowing.  There was certainly a lot of comment like that from the doorstep & polls.  That isn't a selfish motivation.  Maybe they thought Corbyn was tainted by his past associations and unfit to lead.  That is not a selfish reason.  I am not defending BoJo please be clear I know he's a wrong'un.  There was certainly a lot of association with dubious actors, too much for it to be some media smear and a lot of it fact based although let's not get into that too much today

If you spend the next 5 years thinking half the country are selfish, who does that help, that is not a positive thought to obsess over

Labour and Momentum and Corbyn need to own this IMO, they did not play this well and blaming & resenting the electorate who are your neighbors and people in the street, is not going to help things heal

Peace out x

I didn't vote Labour, but I didn't vote Tory either. A vote for Tory from a Red viter is either one of confusion, frustration, or desperation, which is sad, but a true Tory vote is one of selfishness. It's impossible for that not to be the case. There are two poles of people in the world. Those that make sure that everyone has their fair share and those who make damn sure they don't get fucked out of their fair share. True Tories are towards the latter. I think that's a sad way for anyone to live their lives.

[Matt42]

15 minutes ago, Superscally said:

I didn't vote Labour, but I didn't vote Tory either. A vote for Tory from a Red viter is either one of confusion, frustration, or desperation, which is sad, but a true Tory vote is one of selfishness. It's impossible for that not to be the cas.

Stop this. Stop it now.

The working class voted Tory. Not the elite. Not the bankers running the country. The ordinary man nationwide voted for the conservatives.

Why did they do this? Because they see labour as the party for champagne socialism. The fact they’ve gone to Tory to trust for working class issues sees how far labour have fallen. Labour was trying to get people to accept less in the promise that it would eventually get better. Labour didn’t show support for what they voted for in the referendum. Labour supporters who have switched to Tory are sick of this working class saviour narrative that they have over the working class. 
 

Continue to call them misinformed and they will become stronger in their views. They voted conservative because it was the safest option for them to do! Labour need to address the fact they failed and stop with this “our voters are stupid” narrative.

[FuzzyDunlop]

7 minutes ago, Matt42 said:

Labour supporters who have switched to Tory are sick of this working class saviour narrative that they have over the working class. 

Where have you got that from? That is not a theme Ive picked up around here.

[Alex DeLarge]

There's nothing at all we can do, the Tories have won both this and the next election with a majority so large. We will become essentially a one party state, the Tories will create the illusion of a healthy democracy by moving on to more cultural grievances - they will respond to celebrties on Twitter with #epic clapbacks about champagne socialism etc. and the press will lap it up. They will focus on things like transgender bathrooms and Antifa to look good to their boomer base. Politics will become culture more and more and Labour will never see Government for the foreseeable future. Scotland and Northern Ireland will leave and be called traitors by our Government and press. It's going to be a daft, ridiculous dystopia.

 

It's over.

Edited December 13, 2019 by Alex DeLarge

[SwedgeAntilles]

4 minutes ago, FuzzyDunlop said:

Where have you got that from? That is not a theme Ive picked up around here.

Yeah sorry that sounds like assumptive bollocks, Matt

[Matt42]

15 minutes ago, FuzzyDunlop said:

Where have you got that from? That is not a theme Ive picked up around here.

 

9 minutes ago, SwedgeAntilles said:

Yeah sorry that sounds like assumptive bollocks, Matt

Family members of friends in those seats around Manchester that have swung. They feel completely resentful of labour who resorted to promising the world instead of actually reaching out and engaging with the working class issues. Labours manifesto full of things that the working classes don’t want and has become too city centric for them to identify with it.

Edited December 13, 2019 by Matt42

[FuzzyDunlop]

2 minutes ago, Matt42 said:

 

Family members of friends in those seats around Manchester that have swung. They feel completely resentful of labour who resorted to promising the world instead of actually reaching out and engaging with the working class issues. Labours manifesto full of things that the working classes don’t want and has become too city centric for them to identify with it.

Fair enough. Living in 1 of those & working in Manchester city centre - that isnt something I have picked up re: Saviour Narrative.

However, the reaching out part - I agree with. I believe they took votes for granted. I.e. "Heywood & Middleton, They'll never vote Tory" - well we (NOT ME) did.

I had no leaflets through my door before monday from Labour. Only 1 in total. My parents who live in the posher end of the seat... none in total from labour.

[Slugworth]

According to Twitter, Antifa are running riot in London. Bless em'

[Purple aki squat]

I just feel demoralised 

Can’t think of anything good coming from Brexit but that seems like the vote winner.

Areas completely overlooked by the last 10 years of Tory government yet they win seats? How has that happened?

Shit result manufactured by shitheads manipulating shit towns into thinking the shitheads can make it better. They will not because they couldn’t give a fuck. Unreal.

[Alex DeLarge]

Lol I literally on the last page said the Antifa boogeyman was coming and now here it is.

It doesn't matter what your parents think of """""Antifa"""""" - Labour have lost for a generation anyway. People will concentrate on shit like this because opposing the Government has become impossible.

[Alex DeLarge]

Seen no actual rioting? Doesn't matter - we need someone to criticise! 

What's that? We're cutting pupil funding again - quick! Look over there! It's Antifa!!!!

[H.M.V]

I've seen footage on Twitter. If people were feeling even slightly shit about voting blue this will make them feel better. This is exactly the type of shit people have a problem with. 

[circus92]

3 minutes ago, Benja100 said:

@mattiloy why the 2 downvotes? All I’m trying to do on this thread is take some of the anger out and show people the futility of stereotypes, and maybe help explain and explore what happened today to fix it sooner than later
There are 2 sides to every story. What did I do wrong to deserve that? 

Have 2 back ?

Given I am from Belfast where our Politics are even more messed up, I have found it fascinating reading all the points of view on here and respect them all, but have enjoyed your posts the most as I think you have hit the nail on the head on most aspects. ?

[Alex DeLarge]

There has been no violence tonight, if people take this as a sign their vote was right, then it's true, they don't care about policy, they just want an enemy to oppose. 'I'll show them' is basically it.

Edited December 14, 2019 by Alex DeLarge

[Alex DeLarge]

'Did you know 4.6 million children are in poverty this Christmas? Kind of regret voting Tory now.'

'Oh don't worry mate, a few hundered students are protesting in London tonight.'

'Really? Doesn't matter then! The guilt is gone.'

[priest17]

Don't worry gang, I'm 27 and everything I've voted for in my 10 years (a decade? Well I wouldn't go that far but a long time) has gone the other way so I'll spend the next 5 years becoming a Tory and labour will fucking mop up seats.

[mattiloy]

Jeez man.

We lost because the country didn’t buy what we were selling. What we were selling (the policies) were good and Corbyn is sound. Why didn’t they buy it, the reasons are manifold. Media bias, he only had a few weeks to sell a fairly complicated manifesto (to educate the population on Keynesianism) vs a fairly single issue election in the end and the mans no salesman, Boris is, he has charisma. Also this really showed the power of google ads vs manpower - labour has like 6/7x more activists than the tories but the blues have a much bigger budget and reach online. Dominic cummings’ lecture on how they won the referendum is enlightening and interesting, the guys seems quite switched on and engaging despite his politics, you can find it on YouTube somewhere.

If anybody thinks that free uni education, nationalised rail, well funded health and social services, infrastructure are bad, unpopular or economical unsound policies I’m happy to debate them. I have two degrees in economics and work in the field, so let’s go champ.

I see Corbyn as an Atticus Finch or Ned Stark figure. His failing was only that he was too honest, too uncompromising, too trusting that people would do the right thing. They didn’t. Really never got and still don’t get the antipathy towards a man who is amongst the most benign characters in politics ever.

Maybe Corbyn could have had more charisma or fewer PR skeletons in the closet but you’ll never convince me that it’s better to lie to everybody including yourself about your beliefs and be in government than to not be but be true to yourself. Honesty, particularly self honesty, is the most important thing in life.

The Labour Party is not a centrist party, the Blair era was the anomaly. The lib dems exist. That is the centrist party. They got 11% of the vote. If you want to be mad at something, be mad at the electoral system. I think there is absolutely room for a single issue Electoral Change party next election. Policies: 1) AV/PR 2) Call a second election immediately after, implementing 1). But to suggest that labour needs big Dave Miliband back or someone of that irk is absolutely laughable.

[Yassmin]

10 hours ago, zero000 said:

Really is. Both are driven by Nationalism however we might try and spin it.   
 

The “taking back control” argument is espoused  by Brexiteers and the SNP. 

If you are not Scottish then you cannot possibly claim to know what you are talking about.

[Matt42]

1 minute ago, mattiloy said:

If anybody thinks that free uni education, nationalised rail, well funded health and social services, infrastructure are bad, unpopular or economical unsound policies I’m happy to debate them. I have two degrees in economics and work in the field, so let’s go champ.

 

 

The conservatives are promising investment in all of those industries without hurting anyone’s pocket. If people are told their pay packet will stay the same and they will get all of that - why will they vote for the other party?

 

3 minutes ago, mattiloy said:

I see Corbyn as an Atticus Finch or Ned Stark figure. His failing was only that he was too honest, too uncompromising, too trusting that people would do the right thing. They didn’t. Really never got and still don’t get the antipathy towards a man who is amongst the most benign characters in politics ever.

Maybe Corbyn could have had more charisma or fewer PR skeletons in the closet but you’ll never convince me that it’s better to lie to everybody including yourself about your beliefs and be in government than to not be but be true to yourself. Honesty, particularly self honesty, is the most important thing in life.

 

 

I see it differently. I think people thought corbyn was putting on a show and trying to be an activist politician to go into the history books. He cared more about what student voters thought about him than the working class who swung to Tory.

[mattiloy]

1 minute ago, Matt42 said:

The conservatives are promising

 

[Matt42]

6 minutes ago, mattiloy said:

 

Yeah mate well done they will probably not deliver their promises... but they’ve promised them... and it’s worked.