efests Exit Poll

[SwedgeAntilles]

4 hours ago, Ayrshire Chris said:

It’s their plan, not been ratified by the EU who would prefer new countries to join the euro. The idea to keep the pound would mean fiscal policy, interest rates etc would be controlled by the Bank of England, basically a foreign country controlling your interest rates and economy. Also the Bank of England would have to be the bank of last resort, protecting savings etc in a financial crisis or failure of the banking system,  and we’ve had one of them already! 

 I am not debunking the idea, just pointing out that the snp need to answer serious questions now rather than just use soundbites and rhetoric. If they can come up with concrete proposals that are credible then that will really strengthen their case . 

Yeah that´s fair. It was, and remains, their biggest weakness. 

[Hugh Jass]

The Tories won the seat Grenfell was in.

Let that sink in for a minute.

[SwedgeAntilles]

10 minutes ago, Hugh Jass said:

The Tories won the seat Grenfell was in.

Let that sink in for a minute.

Jesus Christ on the cross that´s grim

[Homer]

1 hour ago, UEF said:

The Boomtown group on Facebook having an absolute meltdown this morning with self-declared 'compassionate' types lashing out at anyone who doesn't agree with them. 

If that group isn't called 'The Boomtown Chats' then there's no hope for any of us.

[Homer]

Just been on Twitter and it's pretty depressing. If this doesn't act as a wake up call to the left to learn to compromise then I don't know what will. They seem to have wilfully reverted back to the 80s - a time when I don't recall Labour being all that electable!

[SwedgeAntilles]

24 minutes ago, Homer said:

If that group isn't called 'The Boomtown Chats' then there's no hope for any of us.

Tremendous

[Matt42]

59 minutes ago, Hugh Jass said:

The Tories won the seat Grenfell was in.

Let that sink in for a minute.

Because the working class disagree with Labour that much. They are willing to push things like this aside.

I think shaming the voters is the wrong way to go around this. The working class voted conservative because they felt they had to. We need to collectively get to the bottom of that and have some conversations we might find a bit uncomfortable.

[FuzzyDunlop]

Just now, Matt42 said:

Because the working class disagree with Labour that much. They are willing to push things like this aside.

I think shaming the voters is the wrong way to go around this. The working class voted conservative because they felt they had to. We need to collectively get to the bottom of that and have some conversations we might find a bit uncomfortable.

Nah, not in that seat. The working class didn't vote Tory. They voted Labour and Lib Dem. Libs got a 9% swing. Even if they had have got only an 8% - Labour wins it.

[Zacko]

Was despondent last night, but now I'm channeling the despondency and anger into trying to make a difference in whatever way I can. It really does help, even if you set up a direct debit for a food bank every month, or decide to volunteer with a community project.

It's going to be a long 5 years but we CAN do this if we keep up the hope and look out for one another. One only has to spend the weekend at Glasto to see that there's still so much good in the world. 

I really don't think Labour have to necessarily drift hugely back to the centre, we just need a leader that less people hate. I really rated Corbyn in theory as he's clearly a very good and principled person, but unfortunately he was not the right person for the job. 

Edited December 13, 2019 by Zacko

[H.M.V]

1 hour ago, Hugh Jass said:

The Tories won the seat Grenfell was in.

Let that sink in for a minute.

Jesus. That stings. 

[Homer]

7 minutes ago, Zacko said:

Was despondent last night, but now I'm channeling the despondency and anger into trying to make a difference in whatever way I can. It really does help, even if you set up a direct debit for a food bank every month, or decide to volunteer with a community project.

It's going to be a long 5 years but we CAN do this if we keep up the hope and look out for one another. One only has to spend the weekend at Glasto to see that there's still so much good in the world. 

I really don't think Labour have to necessarily drift hugely back to the centre, we just need a leader that less people hate. I really rated Corbyn in theory as he's clearly a very good and principled person, but unfortunately he was not the right person for the job. 

Really do need to move to the centre or they will keep losing. As said, only one Labour leader to have won in over 40 years. Plenty of the Twitter ranters seem to prefer being ideologisitically pure to being in power. When the alternative is what we have/have had for nine years/will have for another five at least. Compromise is required. This needs to be a turning point.

[mike86]

7 hours ago, Madyaker said:

No party was able to form a coalition either on their own or with a smaller party/indys so instead the two largest parties entered into a confidence and supply agreement. Basically this means that the government don’t have a majority but the second largest party agrees to vote with them allowing them to pass legislation. The two parties in question are arch rivals which makes this quite impressive imo. That said while they have handled brexit well they’ve been less impressive on the domestic front. 

I thought cons had a coalition with lib dems, then DUP. 

How would/should the system be changed? Surely a popular vote you still require 50% of the seats to one party for a functioning government? 

 

 

 

[SwedgeAntilles]

Not sure moving to the centre will help tbh, check out the LDs/Jo Swinson for reference. 

The problem is much bigger and more ingrained. In the last ten years we´ve allowed the Overton Window to shift to a point where right wing "values" are seen as the norm. Racism and misogyny are normalised, far-right rhetoric gets you elected (see Trump and Johnson). The left, us, have a huge problem to over come and any attempt at appeasing the other side simply will not work. 

[fatyeti24]

1 hour ago, Hugh Jass said:

The Tories won the seat Grenfell was in.

Let that sink in for a minute.

It's in Kensington, home of loads of very wealthy people. 

[priest17]

The tories only got something like 1.5% more votes this year, Labout got 8% less. Did very well where they aimed to do well, not the same story elsewhere.

Softening their left position is the only way. Blair and new labour was the opposite of Corbyn, that doesn't mean its the only alternative.

[SwedgeAntilles]

7 minutes ago, Benja100 said:

You have to appreciate that no matter what your opinion is on this matter, many see the left as racist / bigoted too. This is part of the issue.  It is the Conservatives who have had 2 femalel Prime Ministers and a female leader of the party in Scotland, SNP, Greens & Lib Dems have all had female leaders too, Labour is the one that has not so far and I know they are looking to address this now but they do not want to prioritise that over the need for a talented operator in the role

I see your point but I don't think Lib Dems issue was their position - it was more a total lack of credibility and likely a highly unlikable & inexperienced leader.  This is only my opinion of course.

I agree that Corbyn, as an individual, was clearly a problem. I also agree that the fact Labour has never had a female leader is a scandal, that´s partly the reason I mentioned yesterday in this thread that should things go awry that Laura Pidcock would be my choice.

However all that being said I´d argue the direction of the party is correct. This "centre" that we talk about no longer exists. Certainly not in the way we refer to it. It´s consigned to the 90s/00s with Oasis and the Spice Girls. The new normal is Right and that means we need to push left to look after those than can´t look after themselves and will be fucked over by the new norm.

Edited December 13, 2019 by SwedgeAntilles

[Zacko]

21 minutes ago, Homer said:

Really do need to move to the centre or they will keep losing. As said, only one Labour leader to have won in over 40 years. Plenty of the Twitter ranters seem to prefer being ideologisitically pure to being in power. When the alternative is what we have/have had for nine years/will have for another five at least. Compromise is required. This needs to be a turning point.

I 100% see your point and the evidence does suggest you're right, but I am still of the belief that Corbyn (and Milliband before him) were just completely the wrong mouthpieces for the message. Both of them just have nowhere near enough charisma to sell the policies - policies that I personally don't think are hugely radical? Give me a massively charismatic leader and I think they could smash it. Just my opinion though, I don't claim to be an expert!

Don't get me wrong, if it's the centre OR more Tories I'll loiter in that centre circle all day long, but I think there's more wriggle room than suggested once the dust settles on this horrendous election. Right now all Labour can do is regroup and do some serious soul searching. 

Edit - Any thoughts on a next leader? I really rated Faiza Shaheen, such a shame she couldn't take IDS' seat from him. 

Edited December 13, 2019 by Zacko

[SwedgeAntilles]

6 minutes ago, Benja100 said:

I respect your opinion but I also respectfully disagree - Boris is not a ideologue.  He is a populist.  Corbyn and Mcdonnel and Abott all showed their like for hard left politics far too obviously.  Appearing under posters of Stalin and reading from Maos red book in parliament as examples.  These are tyrants that saw tens of millions of their countrymen starve to death in pursuit of their ideas.  It is not a good look for a contemporary political party in an affluent aspirational developed country.

I can see why people think and say Johnson is far right, he has made racist and questionable statements for sure AND I AM NOT DEFENDING HIM ONE IOTA but I don't think he is driven by that ideology, and I respectfully disagree that the Tories are a 'far right' party in any rational sense of the term, you certainly wont see them quoting Hitler or Musolini, and labeling them as such again is not helpful as it alienates those people who voted Con but would love to come back to Labour for a more sensible party / leader. They do not see themselves as 'far right' and will not vote 'far left' either.

Labour must not alienate the people it needs to win over to rebuild itself

 

 

He absolutely is a capitalist idealogue. A product of and proud defender of the system that put him in place and can only be sustained by a perpetuation of the existing socia-economic model. He´s a Thatcherist and that IS an ideology. The Tories are now a far right party, if you cant see that you´ve not been paying attention. Does it need to be ACTUAL racism rather than dog-whistle before it counts?

[Zacko]

10 minutes ago, Benja100 said:

I agree and at pain of repeating myself - were there foof banks and homeless epidemics under Blair?  I am not defending his legacy or actions - just pointing out that the country was a better place under him that we've seen for a while without needing extreme / radical politics

Oh 100%, always love this thread - so many achievements

https://politicalscrapbook.net/2017/03/what-did-new-labour-actually-achieve-epic-twitter-thread-hits-back-at-ken-loach-and-paul-mason/

[fatyeti24]

I can't see Labour moving much more central with half a million newcomers/Momentum still in their ranks.  They aren't just going to give up on their project because Corbyn failed.  I'd even be surprised to see acknowledgement of failure on his/their part - it hasn't happened yet.  It'll be the fault of someone else.  The fact Corbyn is still the leader speaks volumes - he doesn't feel the need to step down.  His 'period of reflection' should be taking place over a flask of tea at his allotment and he should get out of the way; how big does a defeat need to be before you recognise it as such.

Corbynism is over, and until Labour moves on, so are they.

[H.M.V]

I never share this hideous persons stuff normally cos I wish she had no oxygen. But this is terrifying. 

[H.M.V]

3 minutes ago, Benja100 said:

Don't let that bother you!  Just a vile whore joke figure.  She has been dealt with and lost her career and one of her homes through her abhorrent attitudes

Noone listens to her or takes her seriously, I know she has a lot of followers but I wouldn't think they all think like she does.  Many are there out of a macabre morbid sense of curiosity or just for the wind up.  

I have not done a cross section interview or poll of the country but I would bet you my car that only a fraction of her followers actually like her foul 'content'

She just posts vile shit as that's all she has left now

I know I know. She's just trash. I just don't understand how someone with three children could think of leaving that kind of legacy for them. 

[SwedgeAntilles]

2 hours ago, Benja100 said:

Swedge I am not looking for a fight.  Let's just agree that we would all like to see Labour back to winning 418 seats

Good!

Cause I can´t fight...

[Superscally]

10 hours ago, Freddyflintstonree said:

I can't help but point out just how many people you think are bellends then. If you had to say "you're a bellend" to everyone you bumped into that voted tory, I really don't think you'd have a great time of it.

I'm allowed to say they're selfish though and would be happy to. 

[Ayrshire Chris]

Getting a bit depressed listening to today’s telly , feeling the pain of others on this thread. As the dust settles Its possible many people all over the country will be thinking today, what the fuck did I do voting the way I did? Especially those in areas traditionally rock solid labour. 

Edited December 13, 2019 by Ayrshire Chris