Primavera Sound 2020

[Growlkass]

Yeah pretty clearly Primavera's communications have been awful throughout this, though I do appreciate it's a very difficult situation they have not helped themselves. It was notable how they were explicitly avoiding even mentioning the word refund so credit to the Guardian article for forcing their hand.

[ghostdancer1]

2 hours ago, daveje said:

Are you a lawyer?

I had tickets for Thundercat this week, clearly didn't happen. Venue announced rescheduling to a different venue, in October. I can do nothing and go to the rescheduled gig (if by some miracle it takes place), or I can ask for a voucher. Maybe it'll turn into a refund later, no one knows right now.

By your logic, the venue has an obligation to provide the original artist at the original venue on the original date, and I have purchased a right solely to those conditions. This means - by your logic - I have no right to the rescheduled gig because that's not what I paid for, even though the promotor says I can turn up. Also, by your logic, none of us has any right to attend Primavera in August, if pigs fly and that actually happens.

You can't have this both ways. Which means that legally, Primavera are probably totally ok with moving the dates and making the existing tickets valid for that dates. Something will be worked out for people who can't go, just lawyers and insurance companies and governments and money in the way right now. Otherwise people seem to be just assuming Primavera are a bunch of bastards who are trying to steal from them.

Hopefully in a couple of months we'll look back at this discussion and laugh at how silly it got.

I don't know where you are, but if you're in the EU, you're absolutely incorrect.

Many gigs have already offered and processed refunds for gigs that have been rescheduled. Refunds have already been processed for Bon Iver and Nick Cave gigs which have been re-scheduled to next year.

 

[Chilly Toad]

2 hours ago, daveje said:

Are you a lawyer?

I had tickets for Thundercat this week, clearly didn't happen. Venue announced rescheduling to a different venue, in October. I can do nothing and go to the rescheduled gig (if by some miracle it takes place), or I can ask for a voucher. Maybe it'll turn into a refund later, no one knows right now.

By your logic, the venue has an obligation to provide the original artist at the original venue on the original date, and I have purchased a right solely to those conditions. This means - by your logic - I have no right to the rescheduled gig because that's not what I paid for, even though the promotor says I can turn up. Also, by your logic, none of us has any right to attend Primavera in August, if pigs fly and that actually happens.

You can't have this both ways. Which means that legally, Primavera are probably totally ok with moving the dates and making the existing tickets valid for that dates. Something will be worked out for people who can't go, just lawyers and insurance companies and governments and money in the way right now. Otherwise people seem to be just assuming Primavera are a bunch of bastards who are trying to steal from them.

Hopefully in a couple of months we'll look back at this discussion and laugh at how silly it got.

Actually...

Anyway, this is not my logic. It´s the law.

I bought tickets to Primavera in spring. Primavera has to deliver that. Period.

If that´s impossible for them, by law they will have to return my money. Why would and should they be allowed to keep it? Exception: if their general terms and conditions provide something else, for example that they can unilaterally change the date for the fulfillment of their oligation under certain circumstances. Then I would have to accept that for my money. However, that is not provided in the general terms and provisions (as far as I can see). Also, there would be the question if this part of the terms would be lawful, which I doubt very much.

Another possibility: Primavera offers (note the difference to "unilaterally change") me fulfillment of their original obligation in August. This is a new contract offer that I can accept or not. If I don´t, there is no contract anymore, PS has to return my money. If I do, of course I have the right to participate because we have a new contract.

So, you have to check any statement from PS for what it is. They cannot simply change the date and say you have to agree. In legal terms, they will (hopefully) make ticketholders an offer of transferring the tickets to 2021, and if you agree, you have a right to attend. If you don´t, PS better offer a refund, because i´m not sure that "force majeure so no refund according to our general terms and conditions" will hold up in court. And I hope very much they know better than to risk court procedures in the US (which would somehow be feasible), because that might very well destroy them.

In your case with Thundercat, you should check the general terms and obligations of your ticket purchase. I think it will say valid for alternative dates or refund or voucher, discretion of the organizer. It was for a reason that the music (and travel, similar situation) industry asked the german government for help and a law change so they could return the money in vouchers. Also, it might under the circumstances be the better of two evils for the consumer because there is a very realistic risk of venues going bancrupt and you would get practically nothing in return. I believe that forcing you to agree to a different date or lose the money is not in line with the law.

 

[daveje]

26 minutes ago, ghostdancer1 said:

I don't know where you are, but if you're in the EU, you're absolutely incorrect.

Many gigs have already offered and processed refunds for gigs that have been rescheduled. Refunds have already been processed for Bon Iver and Nick Cave gigs which have been re-scheduled to next year.

 

Eh? The Thundercat situation is exactly as described. I made no comment at all about gigs elsewhere.

[ghostdancer1]

4 minutes ago, daveje said:

Eh? The Thundercat situation is exactly as described. I made no comment at all about gigs elsewhere.

that may be your interpretation, but you are legally entitled to a refund under European consumer law.

[xxialac]

2 minutes ago, Ddiamondd said:

Thanks, it was like pulling teeth but worth it. I'm glad – as a fan of the fest but also someone out of pocket! – they finally came out and said it, for all our sakes.

This is a selective reading tbh. Sánchez has made it clear he wants the state of alarm to go until mid-May, and Torra is in agreement w/r/t Catalonian affairs. Even with a potential struggle to get it over the line within the gov, it's very likely this will keep running past next Sunday.

Yeah, that's why I wrote 'due to be next Sunday', not 'next Sunday'.

[daveje]

4 minutes ago, ghostdancer1 said:

that may be your interpretation, but you are legally entitled to a refund under European consumer law.

I'm not interpreting anything about the situation, it's what I'm told in emails. (Email just in today says: if you can't do the new date, you'll get a voucher, and if you really want to, you can get a refund when we can set something up, but please think about keeping the voucher or even donating some or all of the money to the venue, because basically we don't know what our future looks like and we might just run out of business, even though we're a 50 year old legendary rock venue.)

As for the 'legally entitled', you're 100% correct, in normal circumstances a straight refund would happen, and there wouldn't be any argument. But, as many people have repeatedly pointed out, the situation now is far from normal.

Anyone who keeps banging the 'automatically entitled to a refund' drum really needs to take a look at what's happening in the tourism industry right now. The tourist companies simply don't have the money to refund everyone, and they're issuing vouchers instead. Yes, it's against EU law. Yes, it's against all accepted consumer protection practice. But it's happening, and there's a massive fight between the airlines, travel companies, consumer organisations, national governments, and the EU. The legal system is completely non-functional at the moment so this can't be dealt with in the normal ways, and the result seems to be that national governments are pressuring the EU to just accept the situation. The only other option is to see these companies go out of business. For some of them it's going to happen anyway, but no-one wants to make the situation worse than necessary.

It's a shit situation, and if I have a point, it's this: if you put down any money on any activity that can be cancelled or changed or whatever because of coronavirus, it's now unrealistic to expect to get it all back. It's yet another hit that we have to take.

As for Primavera, their communication is shit, but it always is, so what's new. I don't think they're bad guys. I genuinely think they're wondering how they're going to survive. Just cancelling and giving everyone their money back might kill them. They're not a big US monopoly with shitloads of money.

[JedTheHumanoid]

@xxialac your theory about clashing with Champions league final might come earlier...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/52316964

If it happens, it's just a question of who's canceling first

[xxialac]

9 minutes ago, JedTheHumanoid said:

@xxialac your theory about clashing with Champions league final might come earlier...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/52316964

If it happens, it's just a question of who's canceling first

Heh : ) I’m also pretty concerned about the guys selling the beers they hide in the sewer. How are they going to cope?

[jaredean]

I would say i have a box of popcorn and a soda in hand while scrolling through the last few pages of this forum in anticipation of who will have a better comeback next, but i have to admit it is quickly digressing into unreadable back and forth complaining about PS/Refunds/etc.  I think both sides of the argument are correct if you are making it - those of us that the $ doesn't hurt as bad are willing to be patient and those that the $ means a lot to them right now are wanting answers.  Funny that i was on the side of the fence with the patience until my work rang me up and told me my paycheck is pretty much null for the time being and i quickly recognized the emphatic side of the refund argument.

I'm still more of a peaceful, let's be patient type of person at heart - but i have more empathy for those demanding refunds knowing it comes from a place of desperation.  Don't like the tactics (boycot/petitions, etc.) but appreciate the motivation.

[puckno]

7 hours ago, xxialac said:

Exactly.

I'm expecting they've worked out that August is a no-go so will offer an effective freeze on ticket prices for 2021 plus one big new name like Nine Inch Nails. 

As long as we get DIIV back the other 249 names on the lineup are ok with me!

[LonesomeDrifter]

12 hours ago, daveje said:

I'm not interpreting anything about the situation, it's what I'm told in emails. (Email just in today says: if you can't do the new date, you'll get a voucher, and if you really want to, you can get a refund when we can set something up, but please think about keeping the voucher or even donating some or all of the money to the venue, because basically we don't know what our future looks like and we might just run out of business, even though we're a 50 year old legendary rock venue.)

As for the 'legally entitled', you're 100% correct, in normal circumstances a straight refund would happen, and there wouldn't be any argument. But, as many people have repeatedly pointed out, the situation now is far from normal.

Anyone who keeps banging the 'automatically entitled to a refund' drum really needs to take a look at what's happening in the tourism industry right now. The tourist companies simply don't have the money to refund everyone, and they're issuing vouchers instead. Yes, it's against EU law. Yes, it's against all accepted consumer protection practice. But it's happening, and there's a massive fight between the airlines, travel companies, consumer organisations, national governments, and the EU. The legal system is completely non-functional at the moment so this can't be dealt with in the normal ways, and the result seems to be that national governments are pressuring the EU to just accept the situation. The only other option is to see these companies go out of business. For some of them it's going to happen anyway, but no-one wants to make the situation worse than necessary.

It's a shit situation, and if I have a point, it's this: if you put down any money on any activity that can be cancelled or changed or whatever because of coronavirus, it's now unrealistic to expect to get it all back. It's yet another hit that we have to take.

As for Primavera, their communication is shit, but it always is, so what's new. I don't think they're bad guys. I genuinely think they're wondering how they're going to survive. Just cancelling and giving everyone their money back might kill them. They're not a big US monopoly with shitloads of money.

What a load of old tosh. Virus or no virus, EVERY event, flight, whatever, sell tickets WITH the knowledge that something could or may happen which could result in that event not going ahead. That's why they take out insurance. That's what prices are what they are because they have to cover all their costs. If a company folds because of it, that's not the fault of the consumer. Many of these companies are also now being able to get help either from their bank, or government, which many have taken up. It's an absolute piss take that these companies, or festivals or venues are saying, please accept a voucher (which is useless if they go bust) or, please consider not taking anything back to save our venue? Why? What will that venue give to you if it survives? I'll tell you what, nothing! 

This pandemic has hit everyone and when people have hundreds, sometimes thousands of pounds being held by these companies who are not carrying out their contractual obligations, they should get a full refund. Where is that money? It's not like the festival or flight or gig has happened yet, so where's the money? Have they spent it before they've honoured their agreement? If so, whose fault is that? Certainly not the consumer? That's like spending the potential money you can win on a bet, before the bet comes in. Not a great way to run a business.

What this situation is clearly highlighting is how these companies really value their customers. Some have just come out and given straight up answers and refunds and others, like primavera, have used cryptic terminology to try and confuse matters further which, if anything, has made their festival, whenever it may be held,more vulnerable. 

A final note. It will interesting to see how Vida Festival react, which is due the first week of July, in Villanova, Barcelona. Not officially cancelled yet but surely just a matter of when, not if.

[whos3000]

I was trying to be smart and book one of those super cool hotels for the weekend of 5-6 june 2021 but they are all pretty much gone or super expensive. Is it like that every year or that is a definitive indication that they shifted to next year?

[DDave]

1 hour ago, whos3000 said:

I was trying to be smart and book one of those super cool hotels for the weekend of 5-6 june 2021 but they are all pretty much gone or super expensive. Is it like that every year or that is a definitive indication that they shifted to next year?

A lot of them won't be bookable that far in advance.

[DDave]

1 hour ago, LonesomeDrifter said:

 

A final note. It will interesting to see how Vida Festival react, which is due the first week of July, in Villanova, Barcelona. Not officially cancelled yet but surely just a matter of when, not if.

Can't find it now but I'm sure I read that one of the bands booked had leaked new dates in September

[Hip Priest]

1 hour ago, DDave said:

Can't find it now but I'm sure I read that one of the bands booked had leaked new dates in September

https://www.binaural.es/noticias/inminente-cambio-de-fechas-del-vida-festival-2020/

This is the story. Parcels' Bandsintown added second weekend in Sept for Vida, though it has since disappeared.

Very little chance of Vida happening in Sept. Officially they are still on for July but surely, like other festivals in Spain, they are just waiting to be cancelled by the authorities.

[puckno]

3 hours ago, LonesomeDrifter said:

What a load of old tosh. Virus or no virus, EVERY event, flight, whatever, sell tickets WITH the knowledge that something could or may happen which could result in that event not going ahead. That's why they take out insurance.

Insurances for the vast majority in this business do not cover pandemics

Edited April 18, 2020 by puckno

[DDave]

1 hour ago, Hip Priest said:

https://www.binaural.es/noticias/inminente-cambio-de-fechas-del-vida-festival-2020/

This is the story. Parcels' Bandsintown added second weekend in Sept for Vida, though it has since disappeared.

Very little chance of Vida happening in Sept. Officially they are still on for July but surely, like other festivals in Spain, they are just waiting to be cancelled by the authorities.

Yeah that was it. Just listening to Parcels as well funnily enough. Great band. 

[LonesomeDrifter]

46 minutes ago, puckno said:

Insurances for the vast majority in this business do not cover pandemics

Not entirely true. You CAN take out insurance against pandemics, it's just more expensive, so many don't. 

Again, not the fault of the consumer if a company hasn't taken out the full insurance.

[puckno]

It is true, you could (but can no longer), but it was an add on package that almost none of the festivals nor artists ever added to their insurance. To cover for all very unexpected and highly unlikely events, such as a pandemic, there are force majeure clauses in most contractual terms, with all parties. Including the one that you signed up for when buying the ticket.

[LonesomeDrifter]

1 hour ago, puckno said:

It is true, you could (but can no longer), but it was an add on package that almost none of the festivals nor artists ever added to their insurance. To cover for all very unexpected and highly unlikely events, such as a pandemic, there are force majeure clauses in most contractual terms, with all parties. Including the one that you signed up for when buying the ticket.

Yes, it was an an add on package that they didn't take out. So who's at fault? Certainly not the consumer. I dropped my €800 digital camera last week and my house insurance covers it without excess to pay. You know why? Because I took out extras on my policy, rather than just the basic. It's how it works. 

So, given that they COULD have taken the extra, but didn't, is their fault, no one else's. I would have thought that protecting their festival as well as the ticket buying festival goers would be a top priority. Clearly not.

Primavera have tweeted again today, not about their customers but how great a band were in 2012. Their PR is an absolute disgrace and as far as I'm concerned, just another nail in their coffin.

 

Edited April 18, 2020 by LonesomeDrifter
Spelling mistake

[xxialac]

1 hour ago, LonesomeDrifter said:

Yes, it was an an add on package that they didn't take out. So who's at fault? Certainly not the consumer. I dropped my €800 digital camera last week and my house insurance covers it without excess to pay. You know why? Because I took out extras on my policy, rather than just the basic. It's how it works. 

So, given that they COULD have taken the extra, but didn't, is their fault, no one else's. I would have thought that protecting their festival as well as the ticket buying festival goers would be a top priority. Clearly not.

Primavera have tweeted again today, not about their customers but how great a band were in 2012. Their PR is an absolute disgrace and as far as I'm concerned, just another nail in their coffin.

 

20,000 people have died in Spain so far and people have lost their whole livelihoods because of a global pandemic.

You are completely flying off the handle with ridiculous suggestions that they are somehow negligent for not paying additional insurance cover for something that hasn't occurred in over 100 years, putting out petitions and writing messages to bands on twitter like "Fuck Primavera sound, do NOT play that festival. Bunch of thieving bastards. Fuck em!'

This is all over a €200 ticket which is less than 1% of the average person's annual income in Barcelona.

And this despite the fact you *are* indeed about to get a refund on that €200 ticket, which will lead to the business providing you with that refund making a heavy financial loss for the year, and the festival is still over 6 weeks away.

Perspective?

[jannybruck]

1 hour ago, xxialac said:

This is all over a €200 ticket which is less than 1% of the average person's annual income in Barcelona.

I know you defend Primavera tooth and nail regardless of what the argument is, but implying the ticket is somehow a minimal cost to people is insulting given people's circumstances at the moment.

For every festival-goer that has been furloughed, had jobs cut, had to defer on rent and mortgages – having hundreds of euros sat in some company's bank account accruing interest (on top of the stress of cancelled flights and accommodation) is annoying particularly given the festival's absolute mess of a communication strategy. I don't blame people for getting antsy and irritated when that 200 Euros might be the difference between putting food on the table this month or not.

Edited April 18, 2020 by jannybruck

[puckno]

2 minutes ago, jannybruck said:

having hundreds of euros sat in some company's bank account accruing interest

No need to suggest ticket revenues are put on a separate bank account and being held untouched with interest revenues flowing in to greedy owners. Primavera is an organisation with money going in and out the full year, I am quite sure some parts of those revenues are already spent. Most festivals these days earn money on the sales of beer, not the tickets. Let them sort this out, there are a lot of puzzles. And people will most likely get their refunds. I personally find there is no mess in communication strategies, you will find virtually no festival that have promised refunds before a government ban, with a very few exceptions.

[xxialac]

14 minutes ago, jannybruck said:

I know you defend Primavera tooth and nail regardless of what the argument is, but implying the ticket is somehow a minimal cost to people is insulting given people's circumstances at the moment.

For every festival-goer that has been furloughed, had jobs cut, had to defer on rent and mortgages – having hundreds of euros sat in some company's bank account accruing interest (on top of the stress of cancelled flights and accommodation) is annoying particularly given the festival's absolute mess of a communication strategy. I don't blame people for getting antsy and irritated when that 200 Euros might be the difference between putting food on the table this month or not.

There are a lot of falsehoods in your message.

- If the festival acts out of line I will be as vocal as anyone else about it. But they're not, so I'm not. I'm replaying the same line over and again, which is that people need to cut the organisers some slack, faced with what must be a monumental logistics nightmare for them. And one that has happened through no fault of their own.

- You don't understand economics. The current bank rate here is a pitiful 0.1%, similar in Europe. And that's the favourable rate that central banks are getting, not what bank customers get. Primavera are not financially benefiting from having money in their account for a few weeks.

- I'm very sorry for all people who have lost income and even more so those who have lost their jobs. And I don't think the 200 euros is a minimal cost to people...if it was being lost, that would be a blow for many and I'd sympathise. But it's not. People are getting their money back.

- I don't believe so many people are needing for cashflow reasons the return of 200 euros right now, as you so melodramatically put it, to 'put food on the table'. People who go to Primavera are by global standards doing pretty well and have ways of accessing borrowings from friends, savings, overdraft facilities, credit cards (upon which payment is suspended for 3 months at the moment), valuable possessions that can be sold in the extreme case (the poster above mentions his camera is worth 800 euros) etc etc. 

Here's some perspective:

Musicians stand to lose all their income, no way of paying the bills for god knows how long. They're self employed, they can't be furloughed.

Primavera attendees have to wait a few weeks for the full return of 200 euros.