Primavera Sound 2020

[jannybruck]

22 minutes ago, Dubkeith said:

Onto the main topic, a friend who works in live production in LA told me last night that there has been barely a mention of Primavera LA since they announced it last June and he doesn’t know any artists who confirmed they would be playing it. There has been zero PR about it over there and he suspects it was unlikely to happen, crisis or no crisis. Primavera might have financial issues but they certainly have communication issues and both seem to at play right now.

This is interesting, and I'd love to know the reason why it didn't even get off the ground even pre-virus.

I see people mention potential financial issues but as a couple of local articles have pointed out over the past year, their profit has grown year on year into the multi-millions, shareholders have been receiving six figure payouts, and they receive a huge amount from local subsidies, brand sponsorships, and food and drink. Not having a festival this year will be a hit to their profits of course, but in terms of overall business they definitely aren't struggling, which is why a lot of the reaction to their poor communications has been so badly received particularly amongst local people who know how well they do (and how poorly they pay staff, but that's another conversation).

[xxialac]

1 minute ago, jannybruck said:

This is interesting, and I'd love to know the reason why it didn't even get off the ground even pre-virus.

I see people mention potential financial issues but as a couple of local articles have pointed out over the past year, their profit has grown year on year into the multi-millions, shareholders have been receiving six figure payouts, and they receive a huge amount from local subsidies, brand sponsorships, and food and drink. Not having a festival this year will be a hit to their profits of course, but in terms of overall business they definitely aren't struggling, which is why a lot of the reaction to their poor communications has been so badly received particularly amongst local people who know how well they do (and how poorly they pay staff, but that's another conversation).

Could you point me to the article that references their multimillion euro profit? Genuinely interested....

[jannybruck]

9 minutes ago, xxialac said:

Could you point me to the article that references their multimillion euro profit? Genuinely interested....

https://www.metropoliabierta.com/economia/primavera-sound-maquina-cobrar-subvenciones-publicas_16528_102.html

I think a lot of people forget that just because they have on some interesting bands and manage to position themselves as a cool festival, they're still a huge business making all the same types of capitalist moves any other huge business would.

Edited April 17, 2020 by jannybruck

[Chilly Toad]

1 hour ago, puckno said:

Yes, but only so after governments have banned festivals from taking place at the scheduled time, so that the festival know the force majeure in contractual terms are invoked. Lots of non-cancelled festivals begging governments for a ban to be clarified too, and I guess Primavera is in that category right know after realising the August date was not such a good idea after all.

But ... for everybody who cannot make it to the August date Primavera is cancelled as a matter of fact. These people - Primavera must be aware that they exist, and in no small numbers - do have a right to get an offer or at least some information weeks after Primavera cancelled for them due to force majeure. Even a hardcore aficionado like xxialac should accept that at the very least for these people Primavera could have done much more than they did up to now (which is nothing, actually).

[Dubkeith]

17 minutes ago, xxialac said:

Funny how opinions differ.  I thought she was genuinely brilliant, so much energy, strong vocals and dancing, no duds in the set and the audience acapella singalong to Dancing On My Own was a moment.

Hadn't seen her before though. What does she normally do that is better? 

I thought she could have sang more songs, she only did seven or eight and there was about 15 minutes of her dancing along to house music which worked ok in a 90 minute set but not a 60 minute set. DOMO was great though.

[daveje]

1 hour ago, jannybruck said:

I think it's pretty dismissive to call people who want some sort of concrete answer, or at least some sort of acknowledgement, from a giant company 'snowflakes'.

If that's all it was, then I'd be good with it. But there's a big difference between that and starting petitions demanding that artists boycott Primavera forever because the festival isn't jumping when you want them to.

Primavera tried to make the best of it by postponing, but events have clearly overtaken them, and whatever commitments they might have received for August have probably all turned into dust by now, and they're freaking out. It's good that the Guardian has pushed them into making some kind of statement, but I expect something more official sooner rather than later.

BTW. Primavera is really a piddly little company in the grand scheme of things. LiveNation is a giant company, and they still haven't said a thing about Mad Cool. Just for comparison sake.

[ghostdancer1]

1 hour ago, puckno said:

Yes, but only so after governments have banned festivals from taking place at the scheduled time, so that the festival know the force majeure in contractual terms are invoked. Lots of non-cancelled festivals begging governments for a ban to be clarified too, and I guess Primavera is in that category right know after realising the August date was not such a good idea after all.

Wrong.

Here in Ireland we're only in lockdown officially until 5th May so far. Several gigs/festivals after that date have already been cancelled/postponed and are offering refunds already.

 

[daveje]

7 minutes ago, Chilly Toad said:

But ... for everybody who cannot make it to the August date Primavera is cancelled as a matter of fact. These people - Primavera must be aware that they exist, and in no small numbers - do have a right to get an offer or at least some information weeks after Primavera cancelled for them due to force majeure. Even a hardcore aficionado like xxialac should accept that at the very least for these people Primavera could have done much more than they did up to now (which is nothing, actually).

My guess is that making an official statement about refunds is essentially the same as admitting that August isn't going to happen, and that the legal position right now is until 2020 is completely ruled out and cancelled, the tickets are still valid and therefore not eligible to be refunded.

[ghostdancer1]

2 hours ago, daveje said:

We're all in this together, and we're all going to suffer, but some people need to be entitled little snowflakes. From some of the comments here you wouldn't imagine that there's a real world out there with people dying, businesses going bust, people losing their jobs, economies slowing down.

yeah, it's almost as if people are worried about money, and would like their money back for a service that a company won't provide to them. Or you know, at least an official acknowledgement that they'll be able to get their money back, without having to get a UK newspaper to shame it out of them after their initial report.

 

 

[Chilly Toad]

32 minutes ago, jannybruck said:

https://www.metropoliabierta.com/economia/primavera-sound-maquina-cobrar-subvenciones-publicas_16528_102.html

I think a lot of people forget that just because they have on some interesting bands and manage to position themselves as a cool festival, they're still a huge business making all the same types of capitalist moves any other huge business would.

That´s some ugly things in those reports...

Gabi Soprano, nice!

[Chilly Toad]

10 minutes ago, daveje said:

My guess is that making an official statement about refunds is essentially the same as admitting that August isn't going to happen, and that the legal position right now is until 2020 is completely ruled out and cancelled, the tickets are still valid and therefore not eligible to be refunded.

If that (the June ticket is now an August ticket, live with it) is their legal position, they should talk to their lawyers again, and quickly.

[daveje]

11 minutes ago, Chilly Toad said:

If that (the June ticket is now an August ticket, live with it) is their legal position, they should talk to their lawyers again, and quickly.

I'm sure they've done that already.

The terms and conditions include the following:

• refunds only on cancellation;
• force majeur will not lead to refunds;
• organisation reserves the right to modify the program.

Right now, the festival isn't cancelled, the program has been modified so that it takes place on different dates. That would be a lawyer's argument anyway.

But there's one more term and condition which is interesting:

• the suspension of more than HALF OF THE PROGRAM will be considered cancellation.

Anyone think more than half of the original lineup will be there in August?

[xxialac]

I'm not seeing a "huge" business here.

39 full time staff? c.£.1m profit for 2 years (neither of those figures are the 'multimillion profits' cited), £600k the year before that, less the year before that, will record a heavy loss for this year. Isn't this risk-reward balance just the nature of capitalism?

Totally respect that fans should get a refund. That is what they are getting, however. Primavera on the other hand will have to suck up losses and musicians in an even worse position.

 

[Memory Man]

Lets be honest its a mess, but it’s only a matter of time until they have to give up on 2020 entirely and in that case tickets will just roll on to 2021

when that happens you should be able to get a refund but i imagine they will make it as difficult as possible for you to get one.

the only thing i’m annoyed about is that i ever believed there was a chance of august and paid more money to easyjet to move my flights to those dates, which i shouldnt have done.

 

[FloorFiller]

2 minutes ago, Memory Man said:

the only thing i’m annoyed about is that i ever believed there was a chance of august and paid more money to easyjet to move my flights to those dates, which i shouldnt have done.

 

Yeah likewise - got caught up in a moment of blind hope that some of this summer might not be cancelled after all. Really should’ve just waited things out and soon come to the realisation that it wasn’t gonna go ahead. Ah well.

[Chilly Toad]

7 minutes ago, daveje said:

I'm sure they've done that already.

The terms and conditions include the following:

• refunds only on cancellation;
• force majeur will not lead to refunds;
• organisation reserves the right to modify the program.

Right now, the festival isn't cancelled, the program has been modified so that it takes place on different dates. That would be a lawyer's argument anyway.

But there's one more term and condition which is interesting:

• the suspension of more than HALF OF THE PROGRAM will be considered cancellation.

Anyone think more than half of the original lineup will be there in August?

Well, if that would be their lawyer´s argument, let them say so (actually - in that case they better change their legal team). I have bought the right to attend a festival on certain days. Primavera has promised - as a main contractual obligtion - to organize the festival on those days. Changing the dates is not only modifying the program, you won´t win with that argument, in no courtroom wherever.

[xxialac]

2 minutes ago, Memory Man said:

Lets be honest its a mess, but it’s only a matter of time until they have to give up on 2020 entirely and in that case tickets will just roll on to 2021

when that happens you should be able to get a refund but i imagine they will make it as difficult as possible for you to get one.

the only thing i’m annoyed about is that i ever believed there was a chance of august and paid more money to easyjet to move my flights to those dates, which i shouldnt have done.

 

Totally think this is what will happen (sorry about your flight incidentally, sounds annoying). 

An announcement will be made in coming weeks that try as they might 2020 can't happen, all tickets roll into next year (with some kind of incentive) and if you want a refund, apply here etc.

"I imagine they will make it as difficult as possible for you to get one" - this is the type of comment that baffles me though. Do they have a track record of making refunds as difficult as humanly possible? Even one instance when they did in the past? 

There's so much damning of them before they have determined something. Guilty until proven innocent....

[Chilly Toad]

23 minutes ago, xxialac said:

There's so much damning of them before they have determined something. Guilty until proven innocent....

I think you misunderstand. The only problem most people here have is that they do not make a decision about refunds / carrying over tickets to 2021 or communicate it if they made it. And that is a legitimate complaint. I have bought three tickets. That is quite some money there. I consider myself to be a contractual partner of Primavera and I would like to be treated as such, not as a petitioner.

Primavera in 2021 will certainly not accept me going to all the concerts while telling them to wait until I will reveal options for my payment.

[xxialac]

1 minute ago, Chilly Toad said:

I think you misunderstand. The only problem most people here have is that they do not make a decision about refunds / carrying over tickets to 2021 or communicate it if they made it. And that is a legitimate complaint. I have bought three tickets. That is quite some money there. I consider myself to be a contractual partner of Primavera and I would like to be treated as such, not as a petitioner.

Primavera in 2021 will certainly not accept me going to all the concerts while telling them to wait until I will reveal options for my payment.

They're been trying to juggle three potential festival dates for this edition with all the significant complication that involves and there may well be insurance issues.

They've communicated that they will make an announcement on tickets when the state of emergency is lifted which is due to be next Sunday. It's not like you are having to wait until after the festival - it is still 6 weeks to go to the original date.

You're down on three tickets presently but you expected to not see that money again (and indeed to spend more) and you will get your full refund. 

 

[puckno]

40 minutes ago, Chilly Toad said:

 Changing the dates is not only modifying the program, you won´t win with that argument, in no courtroom wherever.

Well, I´ve got at bunch of tickets on ticketmaster practicing the same, postponement to a later date do not give me or others the possibilities a refund. I´ve also read legal arguments on that being within the possible for the organiser. Postponing a festival to the next edition would however be different. Then Primavera could try to enforce the force majeure terms in the ticket conditions we all signed up for, but they wont.

Regarding a comment from MemoryMan; " Lets be honest its a mess, but it’s only a matter of time until they have to give up on 2020 entirely and in that case tickets will just roll on to 2021. When that happens you should be able to get a refund but i imagine they will make it as difficult as possible for you to get one."

No, I don´t think so. They will rather rely on positive marketing, to give us a bunch of good names and/or otherwise make it tempting for as many people as possible to roll over the tickets to next edition. That is the smart move.

[xxialac]

1 minute ago, puckno said:

Well, I´ve got at bunch of tickets on ticketmaster practicing the same, postponement to a later date do not give me or others the possibilities a refund. I´ve also read legal arguments on that being within the possible for the organiser. Postponing a festival to the next edition would however be different. Then Primavera could try to enforce the force majeure terms in the ticket conditions we all signed up for, but they wont.

Regarding a comment from MemoryMan; " Lets be honest its a mess, but it’s only a matter of time until they have to give up on 2020 entirely and in that case tickets will just roll on to 2021. When that happens you should be able to get a refund but i imagine they will make it as difficult as possible for you to get one."

No, I don´t think so. They will rather rely on positive marketing, to give us a bunch of good names and/or otherwise make it tempting for as many people as possible to roll over the tickets to next edition. That is the smart move.

Exactly.

I'm expecting they've worked out that August is a no-go so will offer an effective freeze on ticket prices for 2021 plus one big new name like Nine Inch Nails. 

[daveje]

36 minutes ago, Chilly Toad said:

Well, if that would be their lawyer´s argument, let them say so (actually - in that case they better change their legal team). I have bought the right to attend a festival on certain days. Primavera has promised - as a main contractual obligtion - to organize the festival on those days. Changing the dates is not only modifying the program, you won´t win with that argument, in no courtroom wherever.

Are you a lawyer?

I had tickets for Thundercat this week, clearly didn't happen. Venue announced rescheduling to a different venue, in October. I can do nothing and go to the rescheduled gig (if by some miracle it takes place), or I can ask for a voucher. Maybe it'll turn into a refund later, no one knows right now.

By your logic, the venue has an obligation to provide the original artist at the original venue on the original date, and I have purchased a right solely to those conditions. This means - by your logic - I have no right to the rescheduled gig because that's not what I paid for, even though the promotor says I can turn up. Also, by your logic, none of us has any right to attend Primavera in August, if pigs fly and that actually happens.

You can't have this both ways. Which means that legally, Primavera are probably totally ok with moving the dates and making the existing tickets valid for that dates. Something will be worked out for people who can't go, just lawyers and insurance companies and governments and money in the way right now. Otherwise people seem to be just assuming Primavera are a bunch of bastards who are trying to steal from them.

Hopefully in a couple of months we'll look back at this discussion and laugh at how silly it got.

[dabber7]

1 hour ago, daveje said:

My guess is that making an official statement about refunds is essentially the same as admitting that August isn't going to happen, and that the legal position right now is until 2020 is completely ruled out and cancelled, the tickets are still valid and therefore not eligible to be refunded.

Why should the tickets not be eligible to be refunded if 2020 isn't cancelled?

We've got tickets for the Reading Festival at the end of August, what does Primavera expect us to do with our Reading tickets for that weekend?

You can't just move the festival to another date, without assuring people that can't make that new date, that they will receive a refund. That should have been their policy as soon as they announced the new dates.

Edited April 17, 2020 by dabber7

[nekkhab]

btw Orange Warsaw Festival is cancelled
«A large part of this year's program will return next year, and there will be a lot of new artists» 
Brockhampton is already confirmed for 2021 line-up. I think we can consider them almost confirmed for Primavera 2021

 

[LonesomeDrifter]

1 hour ago, Chilly Toad said:

I think you misunderstand. The only problem most people here have is that they do not make a decision about refunds / carrying over tickets to 2021 or communicate it if they made it. And that is a legitimate complaint. I have bought three tickets. That is quite some money there. I consider myself to be a contractual partner of Primavera and I would like to be treated as such, not as a petitioner.

Primavera in 2021 will certainly not accept me going to all the concerts while telling them to wait until I will reveal options for my payment.

Exactly! All people want is a clear assurance that if for whatever reason ticket holders cannot attend the new dates, a full refund will be given. That's it, nothing else. The refund could be 3 months away it's about the ASSURANCE that there will be refunds. 

I'm sorry, but ANY festival that are working out the insurance small print to see if they have to give refunds or not, don't deserve to exist as a business, and this is what I feel they are doing. There shouldnt be any cryptic replies required, just a simple, yes you will be refunded, please bear with us. But they're not and this is what people are angry about and it's very understandable that, now people are seeing them for what they are, that they don't want the option of rolling into next year, or another month because they don't want to support them any more. This is basic consumer rights and I have to so that I'm surprised by the amount of support primavera are getting in this forum, given their behaviour. 

 

Have a good day.