Jump to content

AOC at Glastonbury?


Keithy
 Share

Recommended Posts

21 minutes ago, CaledonianGonzo said:

But I notice this sort of meaningless civility politics and consensus-seeking only ever goes one way.  It's always the left that has to try understand the centre right and appease the hard right, never the other way around.  The left always have to be the hand-holders and the right are the actual fucking snowflakes.

True, but I'd argue that's because the leftist view is more out of keeping, if not directly opposed, to the basic tendencies of humanity as a species. The left is always on the back foot because we're the ones arguing for a different way that isn't a basic concept of putting the self and those in an immediate circle first above the greater good.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, kalifire said:

I remember attending the Leftfield tent in 2014 during an open debate and somebody’s contribution from the crowd was that there should surely be some representation from the right otherwise what’s the point? 

Billy Bragg was clearly irritated by the audacity of this young man’s suggestion and quickly fired back “IT’S CALLED LEFTFIELD, MATE. WHAT DO YOU EXPECT?!”

Billy was right of course, but the hostility in his voice was quite affronting. Maybe Leftfield would do well to remember that plenty of attendees at Glasto don’t do politics at all, or - heaven forbid - might not be terribly left. It could do worse than accommodate such people, even in s kind of introductory way. 

I passed by another time and Billy was leading the full version of Red Flag. Nobody knew the words and plenty of people were leaving with ‘WTF is this?’ expressions on their faces. It felt like a Labour Party conference. 

Sorry, I’m not sure what my point is really. But this thread evoked those memories. I guess I’d say: Glastonbury is and always has been political, and it is and always has been left. But it it doesn’t feel invitingly so. The demonisation of Tories, rather than engaging with their politics,  helps keep who don’t vote Labour from voting Labour. We need to keep the left an open house, I suppose. 

Ugh. Fuck it. Post. 

Tell me about it, I remember when as a left winger, I went to a right wing festival and then went to the Right Field Tent which had the slogan "Recharge Your Activism" and had a series of right wing speakers discussing rightwing ideas and was shocked that they were uncomplimentary to left wingers and spent the whole time featuring right wing people discussing right wing policies- naturally I expected them to make it all about me and reach out to me and be really polite . I felt so unwelcome!

  • Upvote 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

57 minutes ago, Quark said:

True, but I'd argue that's because the leftist view is more out of keeping, if not directly opposed, to the basic tendencies of humanity as a species. The left is always on the back foot because we're the ones arguing for a different way that isn't a basic concept of putting the self and those in an immediate circle first above the greater good.

I always dispute that the right wing perception of human nature is the correct one and left wingers are somehow trying to go counter to that. People are naturally relational and have a natural capacity and desire to share as well as hoard. People have a concept of fairness too. Human nature is a spectrum rather than solely a materialistic me me me.

And also I don't see left wing policies as being solely self- sacrificial, I do see myself benefiting form them in some ways too!

Edited by Mr.Tease
Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, Quark said:

True, but I'd argue that's because the leftist view is more out of keeping, if not directly opposed, to the basic tendencies of humanity as a species. The left is always on the back foot because we're the ones arguing for a different way that isn't a basic concept of putting the self and those in an immediate circle first above the greater good.

I know the left are always accused of being hopeless optimists.....but are you saying that being a selfish c**t who only cares about number one is innate?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

54 minutes ago, CaledonianGonzo said:

We've already elected Trump equivalents here, thanks, and they're burning the place down. 

But I notice this sort of meaningless civility politics and consensus-seeking only ever goes one way.  It's always the left that has to try understand the centre right and appease the hard right, never the other way around.  The left always have to be the hand-holders and the right are the actual fucking snowflakes.

If someone wants to vote for an abject grifter simpleton who locks children up in cages and panders to their every xenophobic instinct I suspect that they weren't persuaded into it just because someone said a mean thing about Nazis on Twitter.

I don't have anything to add but this post is exactly correct

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, Mr.Tease said:

your post had a bit of passive aggressive sneer-at-the-lefties in it, which I suspect was your real reason for visiting the left field:P

I visited in 2014 to pay tribute to Tony Benn who died a few months earlier, but you're right, I suppose I was a bit sneery in my post. I guess I just see intolerance at either end of the political spectrum these days, but unfortunately the left (the proper left, not centre-left) has a much harder job to convince people to give them a try at sorting the country out than the right does. So it annoys me when I see them making it as difficult as possible for people to listen and engage with them when they persist in shouting at anyone who has anything contrary to say. I understand that Leftfield is self-evidently a politically left tent run for and by lefties, and I'm not suggesting that changes, but when somebody who isn't politically aligned enters, it would be better if they weren't met with a stern voice and pantomime boos.

  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, kalifire said:

I visited in 2014 to pay tribute to Tony Benn who died a few months earlier, but you're right, I suppose I was a bit sneery in my post. I guess I just see intolerance at either end of the political spectrum these days, but unfortunately the left (the proper left, not centre-left) has a much harder job to convince people to give them a try at sorting the country out than the right does. So it annoys me when I see them making it as difficult as possible for people to listen and engage with them when they persist in shouting at anyone who has anything contrary to say. I understand that Leftfield is self-evidently a politically left tent run for and by lefties, and I'm not suggesting that changes, but when somebody who isn't politically aligned enters, it would be better if they weren't met with a stern voice and pantomime boos.

Is this really how you were greeted? :P

No problem with you sneering, I would likely do likewise if I went to a right wing tent, and I do always think if you're not into something and go and see big fans of it, they will come across as being a bit daft or confusing to you.

At the end of the day its a smallish tent for 3 days once a year, I don't think it's lack of recruitment of right wing people will make any difference- it's mainly about morale and letting off some steam and recharging hope, and part of that involves letting off steam about injustices caused by right wing governmental policies.

  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 minutes ago, Mr.Tease said:

At the end of the day its a smallish tent for 3 days once a year, I don't think it's lack of recruitment of right wing people will make any difference- it's mainly about morale and letting off some steam and recharging hope, and part of that involves letting off steam about injustices caused by right wing governmental policies.

Yeah, that's a fair point. I happily stand corrected.

  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, CaledonianGonzo said:

I know the left are always accused of being hopeless optimists.....but are you saying that being a selfish c**t who only cares about number one is innate?

Fundamentally, to a greater or lesser degree? Sadly, yup. But that's absolutely no reason why we shouldn't try to be something better

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This tribalism and polarisation of opinion is the issue today, I feel.  Every comment is conflated to the nth degree to demonise the opposition, with massive generalisation being the only position people take.  Support Brexit?  You're a nazi.  Support the left?  All you care about is identity politics.  etc etc ad nauseum.

I think Brexit illustrates it perfectly.  We are supposed to believe that leaving is either our salvation or our damnation, we couldn't believe that perhaps, just perhaps, there are benefits and penalties both ways.  I voted to remain because on balance I felt it was better for our country and the world at large, but I respect that there are some benefits to leaving as well...I'd say I was about, I don't know...70/30 ;)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, Mr.Tease said:

I always dispute that the right wing perception of human nature is the correct one and left wingers are somehow trying to go counter to that. People are naturally relational and have a natural capacity and desire to share as well as hoard. People have a concept of fairness too. Human nature is a spectrum rather than solely a materialistic me me me.

And also I don't see left wing policies as being solely self- sacrificial, I do see myself benefiting form them in some ways too!

I wouldn't call it right or wrong, just...inherent. The whole thing of bonding and relationships is true, but they're quite immediate things. People on the right of the political spectrum would obviously think nothing of sharing their resources to make those close to them well and safe, but a more likely to baulk at the idea of doing the same thing for wider society.

Edited by Quark
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Leftfield is specifically there to "recharge your activism" it's about like minded people getting together and talking about ideas, hearing about campaigns and bonding. If there's an element of "Fuck the Tories" to that then so be it, better to vent that amongst friends than let it out on the doorstep.

Maybe Glastonbury would be a good place for the left to have some kind of outreach debates, and a beginner's guide to being a leftie but Leftfield isn't trying to be that if you find that off putting then don't go to Leftfield there's plenty of spaces where right wing ideas are the norm this is our space.

  • Upvote 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

We had some friends pop round earlier. We had a nice time and one of them is a Tory. We had a lovely chat about our vision for the future and our ideology has the same outcome we just agreed we have different methods to get there. It was rather nice to have a civilised  chat without calling each other a snowflake. 

We can all be splendid when we chat and listen to each other. It's a too rare occurrence these days. 

  • Upvote 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, H.M.V said:

We had some friends pop round earlier. We had a nice time and one of them is a Tory. We had a lovely chat about our vision for the future and our ideology has the same outcome we just agreed we have different methods to get there. It was rather nice to have a civilised  chat without calling each other a snowflake. 

We can all be splendid when we chat and listen to each other. It's a too rare occurrence these days. 

Preach sister

Link to comment
Share on other sites

44 minutes ago, Quark said:

Preach sister

Cheers my lovely, we have already arranged future meetings and chats about how to make the world a better place. I thoroughly believe in talking and sharing ideas. Mainly we are all adamant that the NHS is something special and to be saved from privatisation. The rest is for future friendly debate. :D

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 4/19/2019 at 10:23 PM, H.M.V said:

We had some friends pop round earlier. We had a nice time and one of them is a Tory. We had a lovely chat about our vision for the future and our ideology has the same outcome we just agreed we have different methods to get there. It was rather nice to have a civilised  chat without calling each other a snowflake. 

We can all be splendid when we chat and listen to each other. It's a too rare occurrence these days. 

This absolutely. We really seem to have lost that more in common than that which divides us message. I have friends who I agree with politically who I hate having conversations with because they are so rude and aggressive about the other side and it gets my back up so I can only imagine how you would feel if you had the opposite point of view. 

You'll never change anyone's mind by telling them they are stupid, racist or selfish for having their point of view. I think the internet is a big problem for this kind of thing because people effectively get to bellow their opinions and shout at those who disagree and when things get too heated or nasty they just block them or remove them and so people create their own echo chambers. 

It is rare these days for people to have face to face political chats unless they know that they generally share the same opinions. I worked with a leave voter who utterly refused to talk about it, would not say why they voted leave, would not engage in anyway to talk about it. We used to do the crossword together and if any of the clues were vaguely political she got uncomfortable. 

If we were all a little kinder and less judgemental in the way we discussed things then maybe we'd leave people more room to say I made a mistake and I've now changed my mind or you know what your way might just work, I'm willing to give it a go even though I'm still sceptical. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, gigpusher said:

This absolutely. We really seem to have lost that more in common than that which divides us message. I have friends who I agree with politically who I hate having conversations with because they are so rude and aggressive about the other side and it gets my back up so I can only imagine how you would feel if you had the opposite point of view. 

You'll never change anyone's mind by telling them they are stupid, racist or selfish for having their point of view. I think the internet is a big problem for this kind of thing because people effectively get to bellow their opinions and shout at those who disagree and when things get too heated or nasty they just block them or remove them and so people create their own echo chambers. 

It is rare these days for people to have face to face political chats unless they know that they generally share the same opinions. I worked with a leave voter who utterly refused to talk about it, would not say why they voted leave, would not engage in anyway to talk about it. We used to do the crossword together and if any of the clues were vaguely political she got uncomfortable. 

If we were all a little kinder and less judgemental in the way we discussed things then maybe we'd leave people more room to say I made a mistake and I've now changed my mind or you know what your way might just work, I'm willing to give it a go even though I'm still sceptical. 

It's easy to have a 'considered', polite, non-confrontational discussion about politics over dinner if you're relatively comfortable, and  it's about issues that ultimately don't affect you (or won't significantly change your life), however the reason for the polarisation and passion/confrontation is because there's a lot at stake for a lot of people and/or it directly impacts their life.

For example, I wouldn't have a gentle, considered, 'rationalist' conversation about immigration with some UKIP twerp, because my dad was an immigrant (and- gasp! from a muslim background!).

I'm sure it's lovely to be in a privileged position (not referring to you, but rather this general discourse out there that things are too heated at the moment) where politics is just an interesting dinner party discussion, but for a lot of people it directly impacts their life and they're not bad because they get worked up about it- why wouldn't you get worked up about it? And do you know what, i think people can handle other people arguing with each other.

 

  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 minutes ago, Mr.Tease said:

It's easy to have a 'considered', polite, non-confrontational discussion about politics over dinner if you're relatively comfortable, and  it's about issues that ultimately don't affect you (or won't significantly change your life), however the reason for the polarisation and passion/confrontation is because there's a lot at stake for a lot of people and/or it directly impacts their life.

For example, I wouldn't have a gentle, considered, 'rationalist' conversation about immigration with some UKIP twerp, because my dad was an immigrant (and- gasp! from a muslim background!).

I'm sure it's lovely to be in a privileged position (not referring to you, but rather this general discourse out there that things are too heated at the moment) where politics is just an interesting dinner party discussion, but for a lot of people it directly impacts their life and they're not bad because they get worked up about it- why wouldn't you get worked up about it? And do you know what, i think people can handle other people arguing with each other.

 

Actually it's because these things do effect me so much that I think it is more important to try politeness as a way of actually making change happen. I am a EU immigrant living in the UK. My friend who gets so passionate is a middle class English man. I deal with the issues of xenophobia etc far more than he ever will have to. Recently he said he was going to have to have a break from talking about it because it was having too big an impact on his mental health. I will never be able to have a break from not actually being British and so being othered by people. 

I actually had a very harsh upbringing and have apart from my husband no real family support system so I am all too aware of how much is at stake but I know nobody has ever won an argument by shouting someone into submission. You catch more flies with honey than vinegar is the phrase and it's there for a reason. If you were to have an argument with a UKIP person you'd be more likely to change their mind if by the end of the conversation they thought you were a nice person and they connected with you. If they connected with you then they'd start to think maybe I'm wrong in my views. If you scream and shout at them they'll leave thinking I was right they are all twats and I shouldn't care about them. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 minutes ago, gigpusher said:

Actually it's because these things do effect me so much that I think it is more important to try politeness as a way of actually making change happen. I am a EU immigrant living in the UK. My friend who gets so passionate is a middle class English man. I deal with the issues of xenophobia etc far more than he ever will have to. Recently he said he was going to have to have a break from talking about it because it was having too big an impact on his mental health. I will never be able to have a break from not actually being British and so being othered by people. 

I actually had a very harsh upbringing and have apart from my husband no real family support system so I am all too aware of how much is at stake but I know nobody has ever won an argument by shouting someone into submission. You catch more flies with honey than vinegar is the phrase and it's there for a reason. If you were to have an argument with a UKIP person you'd be more likely to change their mind if by the end of the conversation they thought you were a nice person and they connected with you. If they connected with you then they'd start to think maybe I'm wrong in my views. If you scream and shout at them they'll leave thinking I was right they are all twats and I shouldn't care about them. 

Most big changes in society weren't achieved by disconnected rationalism - suffragettes, racial segregation and civil rights etc- raging against injustice is an important element of political change, something I think remainers were a bit late in realising which is why brexiteers ran rings around them. Sure it can be distressing especially when it brings up personal stuff or experiences of being in abusive households or situations, but it's part of life and not always a bad thing. 

The problem with politeness is you can end up with passive aggressive political acts whereby horrific policies are carried out under the guise of well mannered 'respectability. 

  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Unfortunately, your content contains terms that we do not allow. Please edit your content to remove the highlighted words below.
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
 Share

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.



×
×
  • Create New...