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Emily vs. The Gammons


CaledonianGonzo
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32 minutes ago, Quark said:

Joking aside, that much is true.  The factors behind that reluctance to push for a higher salary, particularly when first applying for a role, are another matter altogether, but women are (based on the research Mrs Q was doing when looking for new roles) far more likely to accept an offered salary than to dig their heels in and push for the higher end of the advertised pay scale.

The other part to that is that women tend (and I can't pretend to point anyone to a particular study or link for this) to look at the requirements for a role and focus on the criteria they don't meet, and as a result are less likely to apply.  Men on the other hand are more likely to think "well I've got 90% of their criteria so I'll have a crack and wing the rest" and apply anyway.

Again, the factors behind these decision processes are part of the much bigger argument.

Exactly what I was going to post (but better written). This is why i think it links to wider privilege, race, class (grammar schools, private schools, widening participation) etc. If you believe (because you are told)  you are worth more then you expect more.  

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15 minutes ago, mcshed said:

I'm just about at the end of my second 6 months of shared parental leave and I've loved it, I tell every expectant parent how good it is not just for the dad's relationship with the kids but for you both to know hard it is being stuck with the kids all the time/coming home from work and being expected to immediately provide relief for the other parent. 

Lots of parents don't know about it, I've had to explain to my work, both times despite it only being 2 years apart. In fact the second time I was confronted with the out of date additional paternity policy that predated my first time off.

I know that not every mum wants to share their leave but I really wish it was more wide spread.

That's awesome. We don't have kids but if/when we do we've already discussed doing this. It makes sense financially as I am freelance so any period of leave I take would be costly anyway, but also I would love for my partner to have that experience. 

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19 minutes ago, Zoo Music Girl said:

That's awesome. We don't have kids but if/when we do we've already discussed doing this. It makes sense financially as I am freelance so any period of leave I take would be costly anyway, but also I would love for my partner to have that experience. 

2 things I never understand. One is the concept of daddy day care.  The other is people who have the idea that I like playing rugby on a Saturday as a "chance to get away from the wife".  It's like everything is put in my way, as a man, purely to stop me from enjoying my life :rolleyes:

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7 minutes ago, Quark said:

Some of us work.

Says the man posting on efests...

We literally live where we work. :P I was just wondering where the Jordy fan club have gone since the gender pay gap has been one of the top stories on the news. 

 

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Nobody disputed that a pay gap exists, just that it wasn't down to sexism alone, but a multitude of other variables. It's easy to publish data, but the devil is in the detail. EasyJet for example has a massive bias to male pay, but that's because the majority of its pilots are male and the majority of cabin crew are female. Pilots get paid more than cabin crew, so the median pay gap will exist and be significant.  Similarly for other companies, if there are more males in senior roles the median pay gap will exist. Why more males are in those roles is open for debate, and there are many variables, some of which were mentioned here this morning.  I work in an engineering firm and there are plenty of female engineers, there are more females in my team than males and they are damn good engineers. I was talking to a girl who just joined the team and was surprised that she was on such a low grade. She said that she hasn't put herself forward to move to the next grade because she didn't think she was good enough. She is. The difference here is that a male would go for it regardless and a female wouldn't, someone mentioned this trait in another post. This is just one example of many differences that ultimately drive the pay gap. Is sexism a part of it, yes of course, but it's not the only factor.

'Jordy' does a pretty good job of exploring these reasons, but most people don't listen because they don't want to, they want to push their agenda that we live in a patriarchal society. Look at the Cathy Newman interview, constant manipulation of his words and not listening and opening her mind to the points he was making.  Equality of opportunity exists in the west, but equality of outcome will never exist, it's a pipe dream. Even us men don't have equality of outcome.

 

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14 minutes ago, Dave_c said:

Nobody disputed that a pay gap exists, just that it wasn't down to sexism alone, but a multitude of other variables. It's easy to publish data, but the devil is in the detail. EasyJet for example has a massive bias to male pay, but that's because the majority of its pilots are male and the majority of cabin crew are female. Pilots get paid more than cabin crew, so the median pay gap will exist and be significant. 

 

That's exactly the point though, there's no reason for pilots to be male and cabin crew female other than societal expectations which have been insidiously ingrained since childhood - my 8 year old grandson explained to me that there were men's and women's jobs; I have no idea where he got this assumption from, certainly not from his parents, I can only assume from the playground. I took him and his sister to the National Space Centre where they were both slightly surprised to discover that the first Briton in space was a woman which sort of closed the arguement.

And to prove the point that women have to fight for equality

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2019/apr/05/fiona-bruce-told-she-didnt-need-a-pay-rise-as-she-had-a-boyfriend

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1 hour ago, Dave_c said:

Nobody disputed that a pay gap exists, just that it wasn't down to sexism alone, but a multitude of other variables. It's easy to publish data, but the devil is in the detail. EasyJet for example has a massive bias to male pay, but that's because the majority of its pilots are male and the majority of cabin crew are female.

Funny you should mention Easyjet, one of the companies whose gender pay gap is increasing, as reported yesterday.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47801794  
 

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5 hours ago, gigpusher said:

Oh absolutely this. Society has made all of us sexist and women can be as sexist as men hence my comment about women who would rather go back to work feel they can't for fear of being considered a bad mother. The most sexist person I have to deal with in my life is my mother-in-law. 

I remember watching a you tube clip by Panti Bliss about how we are all sexist, racist and homophobic but that some of us try to be better because we know we are. I think it's very true. 

I don't think that's true at all. Racism, sexism, homophobia, etc are learned behaviour.

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14 minutes ago, VCK said:

I don't think that's true at all. Racism, sexism, homophobia, etc are learned behaviour.

There are ways in which we perhaps unknowingly contribute to racist/sexist/homophobic power structures, though. 

 

See above, the EasyJet pay gap isn’t due to “sexism” (ie employers specifically paying men more than women) alone, it’s more due to a structure that has historically led to imbalances such as women being pigeonholed into essentially service industry jobs (cabin crew) while the highly skilled and highly paid jobs are filled by men. The “other variables” alluded to are sexist, they’re just a bit more difficult to pin down. 

 

These are the ways in which we’re sexist/racist/homophobic. It’s not enough that you and I don’t use slurs, we need to identify and challenge the unfair power structures where we can rather than contributing to the status quo

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