Emily vs. The Gammons

[FuzzyDunlop]

9 minutes ago, H.M.V said:

. Of course you don't think its as bad as is portrayed in this thread, you refuse to listen and you're not a woman. 

 The issue as I see it, from my admittedly straight white male perspective is - people only see what they want to see.

The world has historically been a racist, sexist place. Is it as bad as it was? No. Is it where it needs to be? No.

White males shouldnt be silenced or "just listen"... but we should help solve the problems, not try to deny or denigrate people.

Hopefully at one point everyone will be judged on their character and aptitude. Unfortunately it isnt happening at the minute as it should.

Peace.

[gigpusher]

3 hours ago, MEGATRONICMEATWAGON said:

Not for me
 

First part - okay? That's great for you, well done, but in general things were changed to give girls a better chance as they were better at coursework. That was a decision made by the government, not my "lived experience".

The second part has been disproven so many times. The pay gap is because women choose subjects that don't pay as well after they've graduated.

This report calls bullshit on your second point. https://www.thecompleteuniversityguide.co.uk/careers/what-do-graduates-do-and-earn/graduate-gender-pay-gap/ 

This is comparing like for like course and what graduates in these areas get paid. There are some where women seem to do better, some where there is no difference and then considerably more where male graduates get paid more. 

[H.M.V]

This was just on tonights Channel 4 news but hey nothing to see here. 

https://www.channel4.com/news/gender-pay-gap-has-worsened-year-after-introduction-of-compulsory-reporting

[gigpusher]

3 hours ago, VCK said:

But re your opening sentence - I'm not sure what being white and straight has to do with it. Do black, Asian or gay men have a better understanding of being female, despite not actually being female, and having never experienced what you have?

They understand racism or homophobia so understand prejudice and being othered on a way that white, straight men don't. Does it make them any less sexist not necessarily but it probably gives them a better starting point for understanding. 

 

[Purple aki squat]

3 hours ago, MEGATRONICMEATWAGON said:

Not for me
 

First part - okay? That's great for you, well done, but in general things were changed to give girls a better chance as they were better at coursework. That was a decision made by the government, not my "lived experience".

The second part has been disproven so many times. The pay gap is because women choose subjects that don't pay as well after they've graduated.

That’s a load of bollocks.

The majority of people graduating from medicine related courses are female and last time I looked they were fairly well paid.

Some stupid things being said on here. 

 

[H.M.V]

I'll just pop this here as well. 

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2019/apr/03/nhs-trusts-gender-pay-gap-public-sector

[gigpusher]

2 minutes ago, Purple aki squat said:

That’s a load of bollocks.

The majority of people graduating from medicine related courses are female and last time I looked they were fairly well paid.

Some stupid things being said on here. 

 

Actually that's one of the reason's why the government started it's war on Junior Doctors. They even published a report saying they knew the new contracts would dis-proportionally effect women but essentially tough shit. Women are not expected to be as pushy as men which is why they finally felt they could go after them and why teaching, nursing etc are some of the lower paid professions because they are female dominated. 

I remember a male teacher telling us at school not to go into teaching because it will never be paid as well as other professions because of this fact. 

[Purple aki squat]

3 minutes ago, gigpusher said:

Actually that's one of the reason's why the government started it's war on Junior Doctors. They even published a report saying they knew the new contracts would dis-proportionally effect women but essentially tough shit. Women are not expected to be as pushy as men which is why they finally felt they could go after them and why teaching, nursing etc are some of the lower paid professions because they are female dominated. 

I remember a male teacher telling us at school not to go into teaching because it will never be paid as well as other professions because of this fact. 

I thought pay scales in jobs like that means that there would be equivalencies dependent on experience where pay was concerned?

Might be wrong.

 

Every teacher I’ve ever met said don’t do it.

As has every doctor.

Regardless of gender.

 

[gigpusher]

7 minutes ago, Purple aki squat said:

I thought pay scales in jobs like that means that there would be equivalencies dependent on experience where pay was concerned?

Might be wrong.

 

Every teacher I’ve ever met said don’t do it.

As has every doctor.

Regardless of gender.

 

Medicine

£32,000

£30,000

£2,000

 

That's the info from the report. This is for new graduates so women straight from university are being paid on average £2k less. 

[H.M.V]

1 minute ago, gigpusher said:

Medicine

£32,000

£30,000

£2,000

 

That's the info from the report. This is for new graduates so women straight from university are being paid on average £2k less. 

I have just posted two links about the gender pay gap as it was reported in the guardian yesterday and on channel 4 news tonight but still no comments after being harangued for not providing proof. Dunno why we bother. 

[gigpusher]

1 minute ago, H.M.V said:

I have just posted two links about the gender pay gap as it was reported in the guardian yesterday and on channel 4 news tonight but still no comments after being harangued for not providing proof. Dunno why we bother. 

Indeed. 

[H.M.V]

2 hours ago, Kizzie said:

Ah, H.M.V....I fucking love you

? See you on the farm. Don't forget me name tag. ?

[Matt42]

Popped into this thread to check if it was as awful as I thought it would be and hey I was right ?

Edited April 4, 2019 by Matt42

[VCK]

1 hour ago, gigpusher said:

They understand racism or homophobia so understand prejudice and being othered on a way that white, straight men don't. Does it make them any less sexist not necessarily but it probably gives them a better starting point for understanding. 

  

They might understand prejudice from the context of their own lived experience, but intersectionality isn't always a thing. I've listened to certain black Hip Hop artists talk about their experiences as black people living in America, then in the next song refer to women as "bitches" or other men as "faggots."

Everyone's different but I'm sure there are black men, or gay men, who have been on the receiving end of horrible abuse, who don't care about the experiences of women. No disrespect intended, but to have the mindset of "they're not white and/or straight, so of course they understand what women have to put up with" seems naive.

Likewise, would a straight white male who is, say, a first generation Polish immigrant, who has been on the receiving end of xenophobic abuse from people in this country, be able to comment or not?

Edited April 4, 2019 by VCK

[DJL]

I disagree with you @MEGATRONICMEATWAGON and I certainly think you can be more open to listening to the perspectives of females (when they inevitably have different lived experiences to you and understandable passion for the subject matter) but you raise an interesting point about what males and females study at uni... which doesn't have a simple answer. 

I've worked in a uni for 15 years and written a book on student support.  In my opinion/experience (not research!)  a significant proportion of traditional age students do not make a fully informed choice when selecting their studies. I studied Business and have never worked in a for-profit organisation since - probably because my school and my mum pushed me into it (in a way she never did my sister).  When I became a (male) primary school teacher lots of people questioned my career path (in a way they may not if I had been female) and there was an expectation from many that I would be swiftly promoted  before my, equally able, female colleagues (including among those colleagues). One of my male friends is a nurse, who gets asked all the time why he isn't a doctor (in a slightly judgy way).  I've seen 1000s of students and these experiences are common. My point is that (young) people are impressionable and influenced by a wide range of factors - what is expected of them is a huge one. As a society we do not treat boys and girls the same. Imo it's not just that boys are supported into certain careers more, we are often pushed into them more.

Yes gender is not the only factor in this but it is a significant and well researched one...

https://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/ED509653.pdf - breaks down stereotypes, student experience, faculty,  implicit bias, workplace bias. A couple of random quotes, "Heilman’s research shows that women may be disliked for being competent in traditionally male work roles". "The stereotype that men are better than women in STEM areas can affect girls’ performance, how they judge their performance, and their aspirations".

 https://www.ifs.org.uk/publications/13276 (Paraphrased) The STEM gender gap is not because girls don’t find them interesting, or don’t understand their value/prospects. They lack confidence  - half the girls sampled agreed or strongly agreed - “I often worry that it will be difficult for me in physics classes” or “I worry I will get poor grades in physics”. 

http://www.takepart.com/article/2016/02/09/black-students-dont-pick-majors-high-paying-jobs Interestingly not just women choose courses that lead to lower-paid jobs, people of colour in the US do also.

... and from the Harvard Business Review - https://hbr.org/2017/04/women-dominate-college-majors-that-lead-to-lower-paying-work "A series of studies have shown just how tightly gender, prestige, and pay are tangled. Researchers have found that the pay gap is not as simple as women being pushed into lower-paying jobs. In effect, it is the other way around: Certain jobs pay less because women take them.Wages in biology and design were higher when the fields were predominantly male; as more women became biologists and designers, pay dropped. The opposite happened in computing, where early programmers were female. " 

Clearly a small part of a widely researched field I was just wondering if you disagreed with these and on what grounds? I don't mean to antogonise - aspects of this thread have been downright ugly but there has been some good discussion also.

 

 

[Purple aki squat]

46 minutes ago, gigpusher said:

Medicine

£32,000

£30,000

£2,000

 

That's the info from the report. This is for new graduates so women straight from university are being paid on average £2k less. 

I’m clearly naive.

Honesly believed from my own experience that everyone started at the same point.

Also seems very low for a medic.

[MetaKate]

I have personal experience. Graduated with a 4.0 as a web dev. Started my job with 1 guy above me, had been working there for 3 years and started there with no experience 3 years prior, same as me. Found out he was making 6k more than me when he started. I asked for a raise they said no. Now, 1.5yrs later, he has quit, i'm in his position and making 12k less that he was. I did get a very small raise when he left and now i'm essentially doing his job and my job. I know that in another 1.5yrs time when we would have had an equal amount of experience they wont be paying me what they were paying him. P

I find it infuriating but I'm looking for a new job now bc of this BS.. but who says i'll find something that pays me equally?

[bamber]

Surfing, from this year, has pay equality.

http://www.worldsurfleague.com/posts/345569/the-world-surf-league-wsl-announces-prize-money-equality

 

[SwedgeAntilles]

7 hours ago, MetaKate said:

I have personal experience. Graduated with a 4.0 as a web dev. Started my job with 1 guy above me, had been working there for 3 years and started there with no experience 3 years prior, same as me. Found out he was making 6k more than me when he started. I asked for a raise they said no. Now, 1.5yrs later, he has quit, i'm in his position and making 12k less that he was. I did get a very small raise when he left and now i'm essentially doing his job and my job. I know that in another 1.5yrs time when we would have had an equal amount of experience they wont be paying me what they were paying him. P

I find it infuriating but I'm looking for a new job now bc of this BS.. but who says i'll find something that pays me equally?

Ms Antilles had a not too dissimilar situation to yours in the UK, she's a software dev, it seems particularly prevalent in IT/Tech. 

[hfuhruhurr]

and, to provide further proof:
https://newsthump.com/2018/04/03/man-wades-into-debate-he-knows-nothing-about-with-no-information-yet-convinced-he-is-right/

and there's more:

https://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/society/women-paid-1990s-wages-to-make-them-feel-younger-20180405146768

Edited April 5, 2019 by hfuhruhurr

[Losing my hair]

9 hours ago, H.M.V said:

I have just posted two links about the gender pay gap as it was reported in the guardian yesterday and on channel 4 news tonight but still no comments after being harangued for not providing proof. Dunno why we bother. 

To quote Micheal Gove “people in this country have had enough of experts”. 

People get upset when provided with facts that contradict their long held prejudices - see any number of debates; gender inequality, vaccinations, Brexit.

I truly admire your dedication on this thread, keep it up.

 

[CaledonianGonzo]

9 hours ago, Matt42 said:

Popped into this thread to check if it was as awful as I thought it would be and hey I was right ?

You think the plural of Gammon is Gammon?

Ok. I respect that.

[Zoo Music Girl]

8 hours ago, MetaKate said:

I have personal experience. Graduated with a 4.0 as a web dev. Started my job with 1 guy above me, had been working there for 3 years and started there with no experience 3 years prior, same as me. Found out he was making 6k more than me when he started. I asked for a raise they said no. Now, 1.5yrs later, he has quit, i'm in his position and making 12k less that he was. I did get a very small raise when he left and now i'm essentially doing his job and my job. I know that in another 1.5yrs time when we would have had an equal amount of experience they wont be paying me what they were paying him. P

I find it infuriating but I'm looking for a new job now bc of this BS.. but who says i'll find something that pays me equally?

I had a similar experience to this in my first journalism job. My job title had senior in it and another guy, whose literally had junior in it and started way after me, was earning about 3K more. When I found out and asked my editor about it he refused to discuss it as he couldn't discuss other people's pay. I left soon after. In my industry salaries are often not advertised and I think men can end up being paid more as they are better at negotiating when it comes to a job offer. It's not at all transparent so there is no way of knowing how your salaries compare. Anecdotal of course but not uncommon from what I've heard.

[Quark]

@MEGATRONICMEATWAGON reading back the stuff since I dipped out yesterday, the thing I can't see that you've addressed is the wider statistical picture. It's come back to either personal experience, or some specific industries or cases.

In the face of all that data and analysis, are you saying it's all wrong and there's no issue? Forgetting specific cases or industry, do you think the overall stats lie?

[eFestivals]

3 minutes ago, Quark said:

@MEGATRONICMEATWAGON reading back the stuff since I dipped out yesterday, the thing I can't see that you've addressed is the wider statistical picture. It's come back to either personal experience, or some specific industries or cases.

In the face of all that data and analysis, are you saying it's all wrong and there's no issue? Forgetting specific cases or industry, do you think the overall stats lie?

me, I'm rather amazed that someone claiming History as their studies is a bit crap on research, and seems happy with just the evidence that confirms his prejudices.  

Edited April 5, 2019 by eFestivals