Emily vs. The Gammons

[Zoo Music Girl]

4 minutes ago, MEGATRONICMEATWAGON said:

Yes, women have a higher percentage of constables than higher up roles, and later on they can choose if they want to further their career and go higher up the ladder. If they don't want to do that, then it's okay. If they want to work part-time more (which is what the Office of NAtional Statistics shows) so they can have more time at home with their children, then can do that too. And it's okay. I don't think there's anything wrong with that, it's up to them to choose to do it. I don't think there's one big conspiracy to keep women "down", likewise I don't think women choose to go into the police as often as men. If there's 29% of women as constables that doesn't mean there has to be 29% of higher up positions too, not if they don't want to do it for various reasons.

There's not one big conspiracy, though. If there was it would be easier in some ways to tackle. There are myriad social, economic, historical and cultural factors that all take time to change and often have to be fought against. 

[Kay95]

so women aren't in higher paid roles because they don't want to be.

women aren't represented equally on festival line-ups because they just aren't as interested in it as the men.

All the opportunities are there, its just that the women don't want them... I could not be eye rolling any harder right now.

[gigpusher]

Hard to know how to react to a man telling every woman in this thread that sexism doesn't exist and that equality is totally there despite every woman telling him they have experienced sexism. 

I really hope he doesn't have a daughter. 

[1986]

An interesting story my girlfriend told me recently was at different times when she was a child she said she wanted to be an air hostess and a hotel manager. Both times the men in her life said it was silly or she shouldn't do that.

These aren't even "masculine" jobs and yet still she was met with socialising barriers telling her what she should or shouldn't be.

As a white male it's one of those things that after hearing I can't even imagine happening. But hearing it was just another reminder of how easy, at least socially, I have things.

The freedom of choice is certainly more prevalent on a technical or legal level. As in companies and professions are not allowed to stop a woman going for something based on gender. But day to day prejudice is very hard to prove. To think that women have it as easy as men in terms of support, encouragement and acceptance seems to fly in the face of what every woman on and off this forum says they are experiencing.

I'm sure there is a bunch of jobs and professions where women are excelling and breaking down walls but I still think it's worth listening to different womens experiences and see where improvements can be made. There is still a reason why female engineers are few and far between, why there has been zero female US presidents, why only one woman has won a best director Oscar, etc etc.

[H.M.V]

28 minutes ago, gigpusher said:

Hard to know how to react to a man telling every woman in this thread that sexism doesn't exist and that equality is totally there despite every woman telling him they have experienced sexism. 

I really hope he doesn't have a daughter. 

Quite baffling isn't it. 

[Zoo Music Girl]

Reminds me a bit of this guy:

https://www.indy100.com/article/vagina-vulva-mansplaining-twitter-paul-bullen-8804596

[H.M.V]

Just now, Zoo Music Girl said:

Reminds me a bit of this guy:

https://www.indy100.com/article/vagina-vulva-mansplaining-twitter-paul-bullen-8804596

Oh that was priceless. Just keep on digging. Bit like our resident mansplainer, rather than admit they are wrong they dig the trenches instead. 

[gigpusher]

6 minutes ago, Zoo Music Girl said:

Reminds me a bit of this guy:

https://www.indy100.com/article/vagina-vulva-mansplaining-twitter-paul-bullen-8804596

This is why I need more upvotes!! 

I truly find it amazing that someone can deny that things he would never have experienced due to his gender happen even when people of that gender say they happen all the time. 

Genuinely makes me wonder if he hasn't noticed the clothes and toys that are marketed at the different genders. 

 

[MEGATRONICMEATWAGON]

52 minutes ago, Kay95 said:

@MEGATRONICMEATWAGON you seem to base all your arguments on your own experience. As a man.  I'm not saying your experience is irrelevant, but it certainly isn't a good starting point for making assumptions about women's experiences.

Your point about the education system is a good one - many aspects of education are skewed towards favouring the way that girls learn, its less to do with favouring and supporting girls and more to do with how boys and girls differ in their development. it doesn't seem to have translated into women earning the same money as men though, does it?

Everyone in this conversation has spoken of their own experiences, so I don't know why you single me out and separating me away from the argument because I am a "man".

I've also linked to numerous articles and cited info from the Office of National Statistic and about half a dozen datasets from UK gov websites. I don't understand why I'm a "man" has got anything to do with it?

[gigpusher]

Just now, MEGATRONICMEATWAGON said:

I don't understand why I'm a "man" has got anything to do with it?

And that my dear is the problem. You don't understand why you not being subject to the societal pressures, to the micro aggression's, to the difference in upbringing etc means that your viewpoint is less relevant in this argument. 

If 100 women tell you they exist but they didn't happen to you that doesn't make them wrong it makes you blind to inequality that is right under your nose all the time. You are blind to it because it doesn't affect you. 

 

[MEGATRONICMEATWAGON]

15 minutes ago, H.M.V said:

Quite baffling isn't it. 

Again, I must have said about 30 times, I'm NOT saying there's no sexism in the world, but that it's far more nuanced than that. Why is that so hard to comprehend?

 

14 minutes ago, Zoo Music Girl said:

Reminds me a bit of this guy:

https://www.indy100.com/article/vagina-vulva-mansplaining-twitter-paul-bullen-8804596

All you seem to have contributed is an article about mansplaining and off the cuff remarks about how unbelievable my point is, that at universities women choose subjects that they want to do and no one tells them not to. Any stats or evidence to say that men and women choose different careers paths/degrees? Or just links to the Indy100 which is about the equivalent to Childrens Newsround?

[MEGATRONICMEATWAGON]

6 minutes ago, gigpusher said:

This is why I need more upvotes!! 

I truly find it amazing that someone can deny that things he would never have experienced due to his gender happen even when people of that gender say they happen all the time. 

Genuinely makes me wonder if he hasn't noticed the clothes and toys that are marketed at the different genders. 

 

What, so you still dress the same as you do when you were five? You still wear 80% blue/pink clothes and you're basically doing the same work that you were structured to do because you were given certain toys as a toddler?

[Display-Name]

3 minutes ago, MEGATRONICMEATWAGON said:

Everyone in this conversation has spoken of their own experiences, so I don't know why you single me out and separating me away from the argument because I am a "man".

I've also linked to numerous articles and cited info from the Office of National Statistic and about half a dozen datasets from UK gov websites. I don't understand why I'm a "man" has got anything to do with it?

No-one's arguing with your statistics, just with the way you are interpreting and implying them to suggest that the way women feel is wrong. 

And your argument is not invalid because of you being a man. But you arguing with the fact that women feel unsupported, discouraged and even sometimes intimidated when going into certain male dominated roles is an argument you can't make as a man. I, as a white woman, cannot tell a black woman how she feels. Hell, I can't even tell another white woman how she feels. If women are telling you they are feeling these things, no-one, man or woman, can dispute that. 

 

[gigpusher]

1 minute ago, MEGATRONICMEATWAGON said:

Again, I must have said about 30 times, I'm NOT saying there's no sexism in the world, but that it's far more nuanced than that. Why is that so hard to comprehend?

 

All you seem to have contributed is an article about mansplaining and off the cuff remarks about how unbelievable my point is, that at universities women choose subjects that they want to do and no one tells them not to. Any stats or evidence to say that men and women choose different careers paths/degrees? Or just links to the Indy100 which is about the equivalent to Childrens Newsround?

https://www.aauw.org/research/why-so-few/

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jessicabaron/2019/02/11/we-have-a-long-way-to-go-before-women-are-equally-represented-in-the-sciences/

https://www.newscientist.com/article/2193119-dont-believe-women-in-science-face-huge-inequality-heres-the-proof/

 

Here's some light reading for you. 

[Xeph1995]

Everyone I drop in to read more of this thread I'm left more disappointed....

[Kay95]

14 minutes ago, MEGATRONICMEATWAGON said:

Everyone in this conversation has spoken of their own experiences, so I don't know why you single me out and separating me away from the argument because I am a "man".

I've also linked to numerous articles and cited info from the Office of National Statistic and about half a dozen datasets from UK gov websites. I don't understand why I'm a "man" has got anything to do with it?

How men see options and opportunities is not how women see them and there are lots of structural and cultural reasons for that. You are drawing conclusions about women's choices based on your experience... so yes the fact that you are a man is relevant.

yes you quote lots of stats, but you are drawing dodgy conclusions from them. You do not see a problem, that does not mean it is not there. you appear to be unable to accept what women are telling you about their lived experience.

Edited April 4, 2019 by Kay95
poorly articulated

[Zoo Music Girl]

5 minutes ago, MEGATRONICMEATWAGON said:

All you seem to have contributed is an article about mansplaining and off the cuff remarks about how unbelievable my point is, that at universities women choose subjects that they want to do and no one tells them not to. Any stats or evidence to say that men and women choose different careers paths/degrees? Or just links to the Indy100 which is about the equivalent to Childrens Newsround?

Sorry, I contributed that article as a lighthearted point because I found that whole thing hilarious back when it happened (I followed it on Twitter, just linking the Indy as a roundup).

Not sure if the rest of that is directed at me as I didn't really get into the uni debate. But as Display-Name and countless others have tried to say, it's not just about the options being available - it's about all the other factors influencing whether someone takes them or not. But we are going round in circles here so I'm not sure what else to say.

[T-Mouse]

4 hours ago, gigpusher said:

Sadly most girls have that optimism crushed out of them by their teenage years and that is what we need to work on. Teenage girls are one of the most mocked, ridiculed groups of society. The things they liked are joked at as being laughable (look at the reaction to some of the acts that would most appeal to them). 

Add to that that they will most likely experience some level of sexual abuse/assault etc and by adulthood they have changed, their youthful confidence gone. We so need to work on this. They deserve better. They deserve to feel like they can and should conquer the world. 

In terms of the reaction to some of the acts booked, without question. The reaction is totally abhorrent. When the line up was announced, I got in to a debate with people going who were berating Emily for "ruining the festival". When I actually dug deeper, it was really because of the amount of pop/female acts playing that triggered them as it was "becoming like VFest". When I pointed out that the artists they objected to being on the line up would draw some of the largest crowds of the weekend, they couldn't really disagree. 

Really fucking disappointing considering these are people I consider good friends coming out with utter fucking garbage like that. But they're obviously not alone in that way of thinking. That needs to change. All the power to Emily for doing what she can to instigate it.

And it's sobering to know that some women still don't feel truly comfortable pursuing their desired career paths. Even if the opportunity is there. I have faith that society can keep moving forward and destroy any potential barriers faced to allow my nieces to grow up and choose what they want to do without fear and prejudice.

46 minutes ago, gigpusher said:

Hard to know how to react to a man telling every woman in this thread that sexism doesn't exist and that equality is totally there despite every woman telling him they have experienced sexism. 

I really hope he doesn't have a daughter. 

Again in fairness to Megatron, he didn't say that (from what I've read). 

I think the underlying issue here is that while, yes, in principle, freedom of opportunity exists and is encouraged, why do so many young women still feel reluctant to pursue subjects and careers they want? What barriers are we putting in place to make women feel that way? What can we do to rectify that? Men have a duty to understand that if this is happening, what can we do to stop this. 

[MEGATRONICMEATWAGON]

2 minutes ago, gigpusher said:

And that my dear is the problem. You don't understand why you not being subject to the societal pressures, to the micro aggression's, to the difference in upbringing etc means that your viewpoint is less relevant in this argument. 

If 100 women tell you they exist but they didn't happen to you that doesn't make them wrong it makes you blind to inequality that is right under your nose all the time. You are blind to it because it doesn't affect you. 

 

But there's lots of pressures on men? The need to be cool/sexy in the eyes of women. There's a tonne of posters in any shopping centre showing handsome, tall, in shape men. I don't look like any of them - that's a big pressure, to be seen as attractive. What about the global (not just in the west) social norm that successful men are more attractive - that's a huge pressure on men to live upto, supported by women. There's a lot more pressures on men that you think.

Me having an opinion on this topic, just because I'm a man, means diddly squat. There have been men arguing against my points, should they all shut up too?

Also, calling me "dear" is a mircoaggression, don'tcha know?

[gigpusher]

1 minute ago, MEGATRONICMEATWAGON said:

What, so you still dress the same as you do when you were five? You still wear 80% blue/pink clothes and you're basically doing the same work that you were structured to do because you were given certain toys as a toddler?

Boys given toys that effectively are a foundation for engineering roles like lego, meccano etc are effectively given a head start in this field. If you've never been given them, have teachers assume you won't be as good because of your gender, have family who don't encourage you to do something because of your gender then yes even if as a teenager you try to enter that career path you will be at a huge disadvantage and because you are already at a huge disadvantage you are less likely to want to enter that career path. 

People tend to like doing things they are good at. 

 

[MEGATRONICMEATWAGON]

4 minutes ago, Display-Name said:

No-one's arguing with your statistics, just with the way you are interpreting and implying them to suggest that the way women feel is wrong. 

And your argument is not invalid because of you being a man. But you arguing with the fact that women feel unsupported, discouraged and even sometimes intimidated when going into certain male dominated roles is an argument you can't make as a man. I, as a white woman, cannot tell a black woman how she feels. Hell, I can't even tell another white woman how she feels. If women are telling you they are feeling these things, no-one, man or woman, can dispute that. 

 

Again, not said anything about how women feel. Just that they choose subjects at uni based on the subjects they want to study, not because "societal norms" or other jargon tells them to study. I'm the one supporting women being free to choose here.

[MEGATRONICMEATWAGON]

7 minutes ago, gigpusher said:

https://www.aauw.org/research/why-so-few/

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jessicabaron/2019/02/11/we-have-a-long-way-to-go-before-women-are-equally-represented-in-the-sciences/

https://www.newscientist.com/article/2193119-dont-believe-women-in-science-face-huge-inequality-heres-the-proof/

 

Here's some light reading for you. 

Light being the right word.

[Xeph1995]

@MEGATRONICMEATWAGON do you have any female friends?

[MEGATRONICMEATWAGON]

3 minutes ago, Zoo Music Girl said:

Sorry, I contributed that article as a lighthearted point because I found that whole thing hilarious back when it happened (I followed it on Twitter, just linking the Indy as a roundup).

Not sure if the rest of that is directed at me as I didn't really get into the uni debate. But as Display-Name and countless others have tried to say, it's not just about the options being available - it's about all the other factors influencing whether someone takes them or not. But we are going round in circles here so I'm not sure what else to say.

Okay, sorry, perhaps I jumped on it a little too quickly, I'm probably getting defensive now because I keep reading people saying I don't believe sexism exists, when I've never ever said that.

Yeah, it's fine, I'm going to get dinner soon too.

[gigpusher]

1 minute ago, MEGATRONICMEATWAGON said:

But there's lots of pressures on men? The need to be cool/sexy in the eyes of women. There's a tonne of posters in any shopping centre showing handsome, tall, in shape men. I don't look like any of them - that's a big pressure, to be seen as attractive. What about the global (not just in the west) social norm that successful men are more attractive - that's a huge pressure on men to live upto, supported by women. There's a lot more pressures on men that you think.

The pressure on men is one of the things I addressed in one of my first posts in this debate. Equality helps everybody because we then don't have pressures on anyone to be anything other than who they are. 

Me having an opinion on this topic, just because I'm a man, means diddly squat. There have been men arguing against my points, should they all shut up too?

It does when you have an opinion on things you literally seem to be blind to. Other men acknowledge the experience women are saying they have which is that there are lots of occasions in their life when they are not encouraged to do certain things whether it's outright being told they can't or shouldn't or a feeling that it's a world that closed to them because all the role models for the industry are male

Also, calling me "dear" is a mircoaggression, don'tcha know?

I absolutely do. Hope you liked getting a little taster of our world