Emily vs. The Gammons

[eFestivals]

4 minutes ago, MEGATRONICMEATWAGON said:

likewise if a woman wants to be a firefighter - we shouldn't judge her or tell her she can't do it, but we shouldn't engineer equality just for the sake of it.

you're missing that we're currently engineering inequality.

The fact that it's still seen as unusual for a women to be a firefighter socially engineers into women to not be firefighters.

[MEGATRONICMEATWAGON]

2 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

the fact of who are firefighters proves that. So the next thing is to ask 'why?' there's that difference.

Is being a firefighter promoted (in more than just a formal way) as a potential job opportunity to girls in the same way as it is to boys?

Or perhaps does the low number of female fightfighters suggest to women that's not really what women do, and so cause them not to do (in the same proportions)?

Okay, well I've told you why I think boys and girls make different decisions on what they want to do. Boys and girls have different wants, needs, likes/dislikes. I'm pretty sure fire stations would accept anyone as long as they're good enough. There are tests that need to be completed - especially physical tests, so there's that to consider too, that women aren't as strong as men.

Why do you think there are differences in the number of men/women going to university and choosing different subjects then? Just cos they play with diff toys?

[MEGATRONICMEATWAGON]

3 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

you're missing that we're currently engineering inequality.

The fact that it's still seen as unusual for a women to be a firefighter socially engineers into women to not be firefighters.

It's unusal, because not as many women want to do it. No one wants to save less lives, or less cats. But the engineering is not happening, sorry to say. We currently have freedom of choice and less women choose to do it.

[eFestivals]

2 minutes ago, MEGATRONICMEATWAGON said:

Haha. No, but thanks for callin me an idiot though I think you've missed my point on that one.

I said I played with Lego and Mechano. They were easy presents to buy for a boy, I agree - and I chose some myself, but it had zero bearing (baring?) on me choosing to study history at university. My point is that the social construct gender norms idea doesn't play out like a lot of people think.

By that logic, did you play with website editing toys when you were a little boy (I'm assuming you're male), and then later on grow up and think, "yeah, I want to have and edit a website because I played with that as a kid"? Or did you decide to do that through freewill? I think the latter.

I had a very male upbringing (2 bruvs) with an engineer father, with lots of engineer types of experiences (lego, mechano, building gokarts, fixing bikes, fixing cars). We all have jobs in branches of engineering.

That's a bit of luck, eh? Our experiences didn't have anything to do with it.  

[DefLeppard]

7 minutes ago, MEGATRONICMEATWAGON said:

Okay, well I've told you why I think boys and girls make different decisions on what they want to do. Boys and girls have different wants, needs, likes/dislikes. I'm pretty sure fire stations would accept anyone as long as they're good enough. There are tests that need to be completed - especially physical tests, so there's that to consider too, that women aren't as strong as men.

Why do you think there are differences in the number of men/women going to university and choosing different subjects then? Just cos they play with diff toys?

A silly example but I remember in year 5 our teacher put a tally on the board and went round asking everyone which their favourite neapolitan ice cream flavour was. By the time it got round to me chocolate was winning resoundingly and everyone was chanting for chocolate to get another vote each time. I hated chocolate ice cream and it was by far my least favourite of the three. What did I pick? Chocolate. To your point, Megatron, I'm an adult now and if that happened again I would clearly say strawberry and not give a shit what people said. No harm done. But what if the situation had been: You're only allowed to eat one of these ice creams again for the rest of your life. Choose now. Again, as much as an inability to eat strawberry cheesecake haagen dazs ever again would punch a hole right through my heart, I could still (almost) live the life I want to. What about if you apply that to more important decisions or thoughts that are constantly developing as we grow up. Sure, there are plenty of chocolate ice cream tally stories we can all tell that make no difference in the grand scheme of things but surely you can see that being that impressionable and afraid to go against what's expected as a child can have more serious, long-term, ramifications.

And don't say 'the ones who aren't afraid to go against the grain should be rewarded' or anything along those lines because, as long as it's not hurting anyone else, I have no qualms doing whatever I want now but as a 10 year old I most certainly did.

[Gabi_says]

24 minutes ago, MEGATRONICMEATWAGON said:

No, it's definitely not always been like that. But as of the last thirty+ years etc when women caught upto and overtaken men at university, I don't think there's much more to do apart from weed out the actual bigots, not just labelling every difference in society on "sexism". It's just such a lazy trope to roll out.

We have complete freedom of choice at the moment. More women choose primary school jobs for example. There's nothing wrong with that - I feel like to artificially engineer a 50-50 split between the genders is pointless and a timewaste. Men can do it if they want and we shouldn't judge them if they do, likewise if a woman wants to be a firefighter - we shouldn't judge her or tell her she can't do it, but we shouldn't engineer equality just for the sake of it.

Do you mind if I ask where exactly you live? I need to move to this dream place where people (I'm guessing when you say 'we' you mean men and women) have complete freedom of choice. I'm not going to even bother trying to respond to any of your other messages. I actually felt it was time men responded to those, and they have.

I just now feel, like I did when I read your first post where you talked about 'life choices', that your views stem from a rather basic, simplistic and I hope you don't feel insulted, ignorant view of the world. Freedom of choice is a far, far bigger concept than what you seem to be using to base your opinions on something that clearly, you've only read about and have not experienced first hand. By your idea that we are all free to decide, in whatever-heaven you live, men and women living on the streets or prostituting themselves are doing so by choice, I guess. They could've gone to university and become neurosurgeons or astronauts but they actually decided to do otherwise. And I guess it also means people being discriminated against based on race, gender or age have also decided to put themselves in that position? And I'm also guessing your wife and other women decided to carry your babies and having to stay home for a few months, accepting that from now on they will potentially miss out on some promotions because of the perceived idea that they will be absent more often from now on. 

My grandma died aged 100, she wasn't allowed to go to school because she was a girl and because she needed to work and help her mother. She started having babies at 14 and had 11 of them. She only voted twice. I asked her once if she had any unfulfilled dreams, and she said she would have liked to have been a doctor. Nothing in her life was her choice, not one thing. And if you think this was the way things were in the past, I'm sorry son ... you are wrong. That happens all over the world, every day. Except maybe wherever it is you live. 

I can't do anything but sigh a deep, tired sigh right now. Fortunately, there are less and less men thinking like you. It's just a matter of time until you are in a harmless minority. Might not be in my lifetime but it will happen.

Edited April 4, 2019 by Gabi_says

[MEGATRONICMEATWAGON]

15 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

I had a very male upbringing (2 bruvs) with an engineer father, with lots of engineer types of experiences (lego, mechano, building gokarts, fixing bikes, fixing cars). We all have jobs in branches of engineering.

That's a bit of luck, eh? Our experiences didn't have anything to do with it.  

Exactly. I had a pretty male upbringing. Dad's a craftsman, always bought introduced me to woodworking, model planes, Lego etc, but I went in a diff direction. No affect on me whatsoever and what I chose to do longterm

[jyoung]

[Gabi_says]

1 minute ago, MEGATRONICMEATWAGON said:

Exactly. I had a pretty male upbringing. Dad's a craftsman, always bought introduced me to woodworking, model planes, Lego etc, but I went in a diff direction. No affect on me whatsoever and what I chose to do longterm

That is so naive, that you think it didn't affect you, it's almost endearing. I would add little hearts on top of my iii on this message if I could. ?

[gigpusher]

Would just like to say a thank you to the men in this thread who do acknowledge sexism and the place it plays in society and the choices people make. With your help we can change the world for the better for everyone. 

I genuinely think the world could end before we manage to stamp out racism, sexism, homophobia and class-ismbut it's still nice to see people trying to fight the good fight. 

[Jay89]

19 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

I had a very male upbringing (2 bruvs) with an engineer father, with lots of engineer types of experiences (lego, mechano, building gokarts, fixing bikes, fixing cars). We all have jobs in branches of engineering.

That's a bit of luck, eh? Our experiences didn't have anything to do with it.  

As opposed to this, my mother was bringing me up to be the girliest girl you could imagine. Dolls, Disney princesses, my little pony, the lot.

I am now, the only woman-engineer in my company (despite not choosing this subject at uni at all) and as we have grade based pay, I’m very fortunate to earn more than most men in the same position as me.

So big sod off to stereotypes ?

[musky]

7 minutes ago, MEGATRONICMEATWAGON said:

No, it's definitely not always been like that. But as of the last thirty+ years etc when women caught upto and overtaken men at university, I don't think there's much more to do apart from weed out the actual bigots, not just labelling every difference in society on "sexism". It's just such a lazy trope to roll out.

We have complete freedom of choice at the moment. More women choose primary school jobs for example. There's nothing wrong with that - I feel like to artificially engineer a 50-50 split between the genders is pointless and a timewaste. Men can do it if they want and we shouldn't judge them if they do, likewise if a woman wants to be a firefighter - we shouldn't judge her or tell her she can't do it, but we shouldn't engineer equality just for the sake of it.

People aren’t labelling every difference in society as down to sexism, but you appear to be denying its influence at every turn - there was absolutely no need to put sexism in quotes as if it doesn’t exist. 

[eFestivals]

13 minutes ago, MEGATRONICMEATWAGON said:

No affect on me whatsoever 

then you're the only guy in the world immune from socialisation.

[eFestivals]

8 minutes ago, gigpusher said:

Would just like to say a thank you

Thanks for your thank you, but ... you really shouldn't have done that. It's really not necessary.

[gigpusher]

4 minutes ago, Jay89 said:

As opposed to this, my mother was bringing me up to be the girliest girl you could imagine. Dolls, Disney princesses, my little pony, the lot.

I am now, the only woman-engineer in my company (despite not choosing this subject at uni at all) and as we have grade based pay, I’m very fortunate to earn more than most men in the same position as me.

So big sod off to stereotypes ?

Absolutely there are exceptions but I'd bet you have still experienced sexism. 

[gherkin8r]

I live in Northern Ireland where we have a reverse gender pay gap and women actually earn more than men. 

[DefLeppard]

8 minutes ago, gigpusher said:

Would just like to say a thank you to the men in this thread who do acknowledge sexism and the place it plays in society and the choices people make. With your help we can change the world for the better for everyone. 

I genuinely think the world could end before we manage to stamp out racism, sexism, homophobia and class-ismbut it's still nice to see people trying to fight the good fight. 

I think you're right, unfortunately. I guess all we can do is try and converge towards equality right up until we cease to exist.

[MrHew]

Kiddie Hew is a 4 year old girl, and as hard as we've tried to keep things as neutral as possible and try to lead her to strong female influences, gender stereotyping is bloody EVERYWHERE! It's heart breaking when she says things like 'girls are princesses and boys are knights' (I'll be introducing her to Princess/General Leah ASAP).

It terrifies me that she will undoutably be at the very least, sexually harresed many times in her life.

It also shames me that I know that I was a harrasser as a young man. Me and my mates thought nothing of a 'how many arses can you touch' competition when we out. Which is bloody horrid.

[Jay89]

Just now, gigpusher said:

Absolutely there are exceptions but I'd bet you have still experienced sexism. 

On daily basis I’d say.

[gherkin8r]

How many arses can we touch? Jaysis. 

1 minute ago, MrHew said:

Kiddie Hew is a 4 year old girl, and as hard as we've tried to keep things as neutral as possible and try to lead her to strong female influences, gender stereotyping is bloody EVERYWHERE! It's heart breaking when she says things like 'girls are princesses and boys are knights' (I'll be introducing her to Princess/General Leah ASAP).

It terrifies me that she will undoutably be at the very least, sexually harresed many times in her life.

It also shames me that I know that I was a harrasser as a young man. Me and my mates thought nothing of a 'how many arses can you touch' competition when we out. Which is bloody horrid.

 

[gigpusher]

1 minute ago, eFestivals said:

Thanks for your thank you, but ... you really shouldn't have done that. It's really not necessary.

I've had conversations with my husband about sexism and even just dumb stereotypes that get thrown about in the office and I always say that while women fight the fight themselves things will never change. It's only when the decent men start challenging it as well that things will start to get better. 

If men hear another man say something sexist even in 'locker room talk' and challenge it then they are saying no I don't feel like that and sexist man you are alone in thinking like that whereas if they just stay silent because it doesn't affect them then they are giving tacit approval to the remarks. 

 

So yes it probably shouldn't be necessary but for now I'll thank anyone who is trying to make the world a better place for all when so many are currently doing the opposite. 

[H.M.V]

Jesus. Not enough eye rolls in the fucking world for some of this shit. 

Ooops sorry, once again forgot ladies don't fucking swear. 

[gigpusher]

4 minutes ago, MrHew said:

Kiddie Hew is a 4 year old girl, and as hard as we've tried to keep things as neutral as possible and try to lead her to strong female influences, gender stereotyping is bloody EVERYWHERE! It's heart breaking when she says things like 'girls are princesses and boys are knights' (I'll be introducing her to Princess/General Leah ASAP).

It terrifies me that she will undoutably be at the very least, sexually harresed many times in her life.

It also shames me that I know that I was a harrasser as a young man. Me and my mates thought nothing of a 'how many arses can you touch' competition when we out. Which is bloody horrid.

Wow can I say thanks so much for sharing that. I think one of the biggest misconceptions is that all men who do these things are horrible perverts with no friends and they are not normal but what you've said is the sad truth. Plenty of otherwise nice, sweet guys have done things that have made women embarrassed, ashamed and feel less safe. 

Not many men will own up to their previous indiscretions but acknowledging that you did something that you are now ashamed of is a big step. The more men that do this and teach their sons to be different, the more progress will be made. I genuinely think how boys are raised will change the world more than how girls are raised. 

[Kay95]

3 minutes ago, gigpusher said:

 I genuinely think how boys are raised will change the world more than how girls are raised. 

So much this ^

I have a boy and a girl - yes its important to try to raise the girl to ignore the stereotyping (its everywhere) but to try to do the same with the boy.  its challenging when its all pervasive.  Yes, awareness is improving but when you have a thread alive with men claiming that these effects don't really exist, then we have to work on the young....

[Zoo Music Girl]

43 minutes ago, Gabi_says said:

Do you mind if I ask where exactly you live? I need to move to this dream place where people (I'm guessing when you say 'we' you mean men and women) have complete freedom of choice. I'm not going to even bother trying to respond to any of your other messages. I actually felt it was time men responded to those, and they have.

I just now feel, like I did when I read your first post where you talked about 'life choices', that your views stem from a rather basic, simplistic and I hope you don't feel insulted, ignorant view of the world. Freedom of choice is a far, far bigger concept than what you seem to be using to base your opinions on something that clearly, you've only read about and have not experienced first hand. By your idea that we are all free to decide, in whatever-heaven you live, men and women living on the streets or prostituting themselves are doing so by choice, I guess. They could've gone to university and become neurosurgeons or astronauts but they actually decided to do otherwise. And I guess it also means people being discriminated against based on race, gender or age have also decided to put themselves in that position? And I'm also guessing your wife and other women decided to carry your babies and having to stay home for a few months, accepting that from now on they will potentially miss out on some promotions because of the perceived idea that they will be absent more often from now on. 

My grandma died aged 100, she wasn't allowed to go to school because she was a girl and because she needed to work and help her mother. She started having babies at 14 and had 11 of them. She only voted twice. I asked her once if she had any unfulfilled dreams, and she said she would have liked to have been a doctor. Nothing in her life was her choice, not one thing. And if you think this was the way things were in the past, I'm sorry son ... you are wrong. That happens all over the world, every day. Except maybe wherever it is you live. 

I can't do anything but sigh a deep, tired sigh right now. Fortunately, there are less and less men thinking like you. It's just a matter of time until you are in a harmless minority. Might not be in my lifetime but it will happen.

Bravo. And yes to your last comment - the tide is changing, albeit slowly. I try to take solace from that. 

It's so baffling to me too that people casually say "women earn less because of childcare" but never question the fact that childcare being the women's sole responsibility is not a complete necessity or a given. Nor the fact that this kind of labour is completely devalued and unpaid, despite being arguably the most important work you can do in society. On a similar note, why are nurses and carers paid so shockingly? Careers that are predominantly carried out by women?

I've also not read the term "housewife" in quite a long while! So gross.