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Kate Tempest


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Just now, Hugh Jass said:

I was hoping to learn something from reading this thread!

Short version.

Kate is now Kae.

No argument over nomenclature in future.

Disagreement / discussion over whether they should still be referred to as Kate/she when discussing output prior to the change to Kae.

Ultimately we're all guessing based on what we think, as no-one really knows what Kae's thoughts are on that specific question.

And Australia has black swans. This is my most surprising takeaway from the whole thing.

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2 hours ago, Quark said:

OK this one's probably going to get me pilloried....

Is it just me that has some undefinable objection to being categorised as "cis"?

I think this partly comes from it not being that widely used, and those who do use it often being somewhat negative about cis people, if most of the places you see the term being used are in a negative context then a certain amount of baggage attaches itself to the word.

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2 hours ago, Quark said:

OK this one's probably going to get me pilloried....

Is it just me that has some undefinable objection to being categorised as "cis"?

I'm cool with being referred to as cis (although it does seem to be used pejoratively a lot of the time). A thing I'm a bit conflicted about, which is horribly controversial, is being personally referred to as a "woman that menstruates" or similar (granted no one has ever personally called me that to my face). I'm genuinely a bit internally troubled by this, as I have absolutely no problem with transwomen being called women. I wish there was a better definition I guess. 

Edit: even writing that in a way that doesn't cause offence is difficult. 

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40 minutes ago, Quark said:

Short version.

Kate is now Kae.

No argument over nomenclature in future.

Disagreement / discussion over whether they should still be referred to as Kate/she when discussing output prior to the change to Kae.

Ultimately we're all guessing based on what we think, as no-one really knows what Kae's thoughts are on that specific question.

And Australia has black swans. This is my most surprising takeaway from the whole thing.

Australians like ballet?

They never struck me as being that cultured.

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4 minutes ago, SwedgeAntilles said:

Dunno if I would consider the bear in the little car 'cultured'. 

You've not been to Tasmania have you?  Put it this way, Hands Moleman's "Man Getting Hit By Football" would definitely have won first prize.

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7 hours ago, Sasperella said:

I'm cool with being referred to as cis (although it does seem to be used pejoratively a lot of the time). A thing I'm a bit conflicted about, which is horribly controversial, is being personally referred to as a "woman that menstruates" or similar (granted no one has ever personally called me that to my face). I'm genuinely a bit internally troubled by this, as I have absolutely no problem with transwomen being called women. I wish there was a better definition I guess. 

Edit: even writing that in a way that doesn't cause offence is difficult. 

I thought it was now being changed to person who menstruates to take into account people like Kae who don't wish to have gendered pronouns but will still have the biology of their birth gender. 

I used to work for a PMI company and it was a genuine issue as when authorising treatment rules were set up to ensure you couldn't have someone whose gender was set as male or female to have an operation that wasn't of that gender so you couldn't put through authorisation for a prostate procedure for a female or a procedure on the womb for a man but obviously with trans people they can still end up with illnesses that affect these body parts. 

I think we have a long way to go as a society to get rid of gender. I actually think in many ways it would be incredibly helpful to all but there are some problematic areas and the only place I ever see the arguments happening is on Twitter and I really don't think they are conversations that should be happening with a 140 character limit. 

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9 hours ago, gigpusher said:

I think we have a long way to go as a society to get rid of gender.

is that the aim? :blink: 

If it is, I'd say the current kerfuffle is taking things in the opposite direction, where gender is more (personally) important than it ever has been - because a conscious identification becomes a contrived one.

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24 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

is that the aim? :blink: 

If it is, I'd say the current kerfuffle is taking things in the opposite direction, where gender is more (personally) important than it ever has been - because a conscious identification becomes a contrived one.

I've seen a lot of group advocating using They pronouns for everyone at school etc saying that we shouldn't push a gender onto people based on biology. Sadly I've mostly just seen debate on Twitter where it gets nasty very quickly. I think it's too complicated an argument for Twitter. It's much more nuanced than Twitter allows for. Biological sex, gender, gender stereotypes etc. 

I agree in a way that it does seem to have made people much more concerned about gender. I'm a woman but not very girly in any way. I do wonder if I was growing up today whether the constant talk about it would have made me feel that maybe I wasn't meant to be female when in fact I just don't adhere to a lot of gender stereotyping. 

I think removing gender stereotyping is the biggest step we could take as a society then perhaps there would be less turmoil around gender in the first place. Sadly like everything else the polarity that exists on all sides of the debate means nothing useful is ever achieved. 

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2 minutes ago, gigpusher said:

Sadly like everything else the polarity that exists on all sides of the debate means nothing useful is ever achieved. 

There's no debate, really tho. There's a set of demands and anyone who might raise issues with them is shouted down. 

I find it saddening and think it's actually causing a worse situation for gender issues than would otherwise exist, as much of the hostility is about the demands and the refusal to discuss, and not (as a generalisation) towards people with gender issues.

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13 hours ago, gigpusher said:

I thought it was now being changed to person who menstruates to take into account people like Kae who don't wish to have gendered pronouns but will still have the biology of their birth gender. 

I used to work for a PMI company and it was a genuine issue as when authorising treatment rules were set up to ensure you couldn't have someone whose gender was set as male or female to have an operation that wasn't of that gender so you couldn't put through authorisation for a prostate procedure for a female or a procedure on the womb for a man but obviously with trans people they can still end up with illnesses that affect these body parts. 

I think we have a long way to go as a society to get rid of gender. I actually think in many ways it would be incredibly helpful to all but there are some problematic areas and the only place I ever see the arguments happening is on Twitter and I really don't think they are conversations that should be happening with a 140 character limit. 

Ah sorry yes, I meant "persons that menstruate". So is it more for people that now identify as men but still menstruate, or cis women? Maybe both I suppose. I think the elimination of gender probably would benefit women in general, so it is odd that I still get stuck on being defined solely by biology.

With you on the Twitter arguments. Definitely better to stay away from those rabbit holes. I've seen some mud slinging from both sides of the debate and it gets horrendously dark even within that character limit. 

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6 minutes ago, Sasperella said:

Ah sorry yes, I meant "persons that menstruate". So is it more for people that now identify as men but still menstruate, or cis women? Maybe both I suppose. I think the elimination of gender probably would benefit women in general, so it is odd that I still get stuck on being defined solely by biology.

With you on the Twitter arguments. Definitely better to stay away from those rabbit holes. I've seen some mud slinging from both sides of the debate and it gets horrendously dark even within that character limit. 

Yes from what I gather it is designed to be a term that doesn't offend those who no longer identify as women (though not necessarily identify as male either - as in Kae's case)  but do still menstruate. I seem to recall this particular debate getting really nasty on Twitter with people claiming that any woman who had a hysterectomy or medication to stop menstruation could no longer be a woman. It all got rather ridiculous. 

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43 minutes ago, gigpusher said:

Yes from what I gather it is designed to be a term that doesn't offend those who no longer identify as women (though not necessarily identify as male either - as in Kae's case)  but do still menstruate. I seem to recall this particular debate getting really nasty on Twitter with people claiming that any woman who had a hysterectomy or medication to stop menstruation could no longer be a woman. It all got rather ridiculous. 

Not even just that but anyone who is pregnant or above or below the age of menstruation! Must be loads of people with female biology who no longer menstruate, so it's a weird way to define a gender.

I don't mind being called cis at all. My only issues around this whole debate are when people suggest that it's not inclusive to discuss issues like abortion or female reproductive health when feminists have been fighting for years to get these issues on the table. That concerns me. But other than that I have no problem with how people identify. None of my business innit.

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5 minutes ago, Zoo Music Girl said:

Not even just that but anyone who is pregnant or above or below the age of menstruation! Must be loads of people with female biology who no longer menstruate, so it's a weird way to define a gender.

I don't mind being called cis at all. My only issues around this whole debate are when people suggest that it's not inclusive to discuss issues like abortion or female reproductive health when feminists have been fighting for years to get these issues on the table. That concerns me. But other than that I have no problem with how people identify. None of my business innit.

Yes though I suppose the point is trying to define a biological state rather than a gender. I don't have any issues either although I do understand the valid concerns of abused women over self-identification when it comes to protected spaces. I have no issues with sharing toilets or changing facilities with transgender women (and have done in the past) but if I was an abused woman I would be concerned that self identification could be abused by bad men who want to hurt women. That is not the fault of transgender women and they have my sympathy but those abused women also deserve to feel heard and to feel safe. 

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I think "person that menstruates" is only relevant if you're talking about something to do with menstruating. Like Tampax might aim their next ad campaign at people who menstruate, but it's not an appropriate way to define a gender (for the reasons people have mentioned above).

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Honest question, and please excuse my ignorance here I’m just genuinely curious.

I understand the use of they/them instead of he/she (although I struggle to get my head around the use of “they” as a singular not plural term). But what are the preferred terms for gender specific words such as son/daughter/brother/sister etc?

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1 hour ago, Hugh Jass said:

Honest question, and please excuse my ignorance here I’m just genuinely curious.

I understand the use of they/them instead of he/she (although I struggle to get my head around the use of “they” as a singular not plural term). But what are the preferred terms for gender specific words such as son/daughter/brother/sister etc?

Child/sibling? I don't know what the preferred terms are, but there are well established and widely used gender neutral terms. Surely it would be those?

But I have no evidence, so may be totally wrong.

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3 hours ago, Hugh Jass said:

Honest question, and please excuse my ignorance here I’m just genuinely curious.

I understand the use of they/them instead of he/she (although I struggle to get my head around the use of “they” as a singular not plural term). But what are the preferred terms for gender specific words such as son/daughter/brother/sister etc?

Whilst I have no reason to blunder in on this discussion particularly, and would possibly be wise to keep a safe distance, I’d imagine that by and large parents use various non-gender words to describe their non-binary children. I guess those referring to a non-binary sibling have less choice though? Good point though, and I’m interested in what a more informed person might say.

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