Brexit at Glasto?

[eFestivals]

8 minutes ago, CaledonianGonzo said:

Better to focus on that than to ask why the fence is there in the first place.

do we want peace, or do we want to drive the Israeli's into the sea, with everything that means?  

They ain't going to up sticks and disappear. Get used to it, and try and find a solution with that in mind.

Otherwise you're just condemning the people you claim to support to endless misery.

Edited December 10, 2019 by eFestivals

[grilladelphia]

 

[Fish Bulb]

21 hours ago, eFestivals said:

this for me is where the real story is.

In a party of any size there's going to be scumbags, that part is not a surprise. It's how issues like this are dealt with that displays the competence of a leader.

Can anyone imagine something like the AS thing getting so out of control it was still a story 3 years later under someone like Blair? Nope, me neither.

I think the main difference is the MSM were behind Blair, they don't want Corbyn in power.

If they'd just kept reprinting a slur as they have against Corbyn, Blair would have been no better at "dealing with it" than anyone else. 

[CaledonianGonzo]

5 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

do we want peace, or do we want to drive the Israeli's into the sea, with everything that means?  

They ain't going to up sticks and disappear. Get used to it, and try and find a solution with that in mind.

Sure. I'm a firm advocate of a one state solution. I'm aware that many people would take one look at Palestinian birth rates and frame that as the 'destruction of Israel' - but then I'm neither a blood and soil nationalist nor an apartheid enthusiast.

[eFestivals]

3 minutes ago, Fish Bulb said:

I think the main difference is the MSM were behind Blair, they don't want Corbyn in power.

Corbyn wouldn't get the levels of support that Blair got of course, but Corbyn still might have tried working the media to his advantage

By hiding away he's created a void that political reports have been able to fill with bollocks.

 

3 minutes ago, Fish Bulb said:

If they'd just kept reprinting a slur as they have against Corbyn, Blair would have been no better at "dealing with it" than anyone else. 

Whatever else Blair was or wasn't, Blair was an effective manager. Corbyn isn't.

We'll never know if your claim is true because Blair didn't carry the baggage that Corbyn does, which was always going to be used against him and which is one of the strong reasons why Corbyn was always a poor choice for leader.

[eFestivals]

6 minutes ago, CaledonianGonzo said:

Sure. I'm a firm advocate of a one state solution.

Then you're condemning the people you claim to support to perhaps/probably centuries of more misery if you think the current actions of Hamas and Hezbollah are helping that along.

 

6 minutes ago, CaledonianGonzo said:

I'm aware that many people would take one look at Palestinian birth rates and frame that as the 'destruction of Israel' - but then I'm neither a blood and soil nationalist nor an apartheid enthusiast.

But you are backing a blood and soil solution for the Palestinians.  

Or are you claiming it as self-determination (but one where you're removing that from Israelis)?

And within a reality where those Palestinians weren't born on that land, and where the Israelis you wish to displace were. It's mad!

It's all very well having a view towards what is 'right', but we're talking about real living people on both sides. And while the Palestinians have held out for what is 'right' Israel has got stronger and the amount of land available to the Palestinians has shrunk and shrunk and is still shrinking - and that "born there" thing means the possibility of getting it back without genocide becomes ever remoter.

[stuie]

So... Brexit at Glasto.

Imagine if we have a second referendum exactly 4 years after the original one and the result, released on the first day of Glastonbury 2020, is the undisputable opposite of the 2016 vote.

That would be a peachy start to the festival.  

[Badlands]

Why does anyone think another referendum would have a different outcome?

[eFestivals]

Just now, Badlands said:

Why does anyone think another referendum would have a different outcome?

because people want brexit over with, and it's the only way to do it instantly?

Or because even Farage hates every version of brexit other brexiters come up with?

Or because Johnson and the ERG hate the tories other brexit?

Or because no one thinks Corbyn's brexit is a good outcome?

Or just because it's always been a fucking stupid idea.  

[Matt42]

4 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

because people want brexit over with, and it's the only way to do it instantly?

Or because even Farage hates every version of brexit other brexiters come up with?

Or because Johnson and the ERG hate the tories other brexit?

Or because no one thinks Corbyn's brexit is a good outcome?

Or just because it's always been a fucking stupid idea.  

I reckon the brexiteers know this too. If they felt confident that it would be the same they wouldn’t care about a second referendum. 

[stuie]

11 minutes ago, Badlands said:

Why does anyone think another referendum would have a different outcome?

 

8 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

because people want brexit over with, and it's the only way to do it instantly?

Or because even Farage hates every version of brexit other brexiters come up with?

Or because Johnson and the ERG hate the tories other brexit?

Or because no one thinks Corbyn's brexit is a good outcome?

Or just because it's always been a fucking stupid idea.  

 

All of the above plus the fact that it was won based on a corrupt and illegal Leave campaign.

[Crazyfool01]

Although I dont see that many that have obviously changed their minds ... people are quite dug in with their views .... the numbers of new voters and the deaths of some of the older voters would surely be significant in the 3 years and counting since the last vote ..... the fucking stupid idea I can get on board with .... but cant see people thinking that about what they've already done being realistic 

[CaledonianGonzo]

7 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

Then you're condemning the people you claim to support to perhaps/probably centuries of more misery if you think the current actions of Hamas and Hezbollah are helping that along.

 

But you are backing a blood and soil solution for the Palestinians.  

Or are you claiming it as self-determination (but one where you're removing that from Israelis)?

And within a reality where those Palestinians weren't born on that land, and where the Israelis you wish to displace were. It's mad!

It's all very well having a view towards what is 'right', but we're talking about real living people on both sides. And while the Palestinians have held out for what is 'right' Israel has got stronger and the amount of land available to the Palestinians has shrunk and shrunk and is still shrinking - and that "born there" thing means the possibility of getting it back without genocide becomes ever remoter.

A one state solution doesn't displace anyone dude, and I'm not sure why you're talking about shrinking land available.  A binational secular state incorporating Gaza, Israel and the West Bank - with full rights of return - and where everone there has equal citizenship and rights seems to me the only just outcome. 

Clearly, though, it isn't in Israel's interests if it wants to remain a religious hegemony - which is why it generally gets badged as 'the destruction of Israel'. 

As an aside, the subtext here that the Palestinians would immediately resort to ethnic cleansing is abhorrent orientalism.

[eFestivals]

25 minutes ago, CaledonianGonzo said:

A one state solution doesn't displace anyone dude,

It displaces the Israelis right of self determination, unless they consent to it.

And unless the Palestinians plan staying in the West Bank and Gaza, I reckon there'll be some displacement.

 

Quote

and I'm not sure why you're talking about shrinking land available. 

because the land available to the Palestinians in 2019 is smaller than the land available to the Palestinians in 1973 was smaller than the land available to the Palestinians in 1967 was smaller than the land available to the Palestinians in 1949.

I'm attempting to point out that pursuit of a one state solution hasn't gone very well for the Palestinians so far, and I can take a guess at how it'll be in 2020, 2021, 2022, etc.

 

Quote

A binational secular state incorporating Gaza, Israel and the West Bank - with full rights of return - and where everone there has equal citizenship and rights seems to me the only just outcome. 

but it's not an outcome the Israelis will ever agree to while the Palestinians are chucking bombs at them. 

The Israelis won't even agree to a separate Palestinian state while they're having bombs chucked at them, and why would they? What sovereign state accepts their neighbour chucking bombs at them?

There are views of right and wrong, but completely separate to that is the real world.

Quote

Clearly, though, it isn't in Israel's interests if it wants to remain a religious hegemony - which is why it generally gets badged as 'the destruction of Israel'. 

No one is campaigning to end the many other states of religious hegemony, just the state that happens to be full of Jews. Hmmmm...!

 

Quote

As an aside, the subtext here that the Palestinians would immediately resort to ethnic cleansing is abhorrent orientalism.

Do you think that when they talk of 'right of return' they're thinking about just pitching a tent on a bit of unused land?  

Who knows how it'll go exactly, but however it goes it won't be pleasant. And all it'll do is create another displaced, with all the same hatreds.

Edited December 10, 2019 by eFestivals

[s30foster]

  Have people been enjoying the latest from Plan B? Tactical Voting.

 

https://youtu.be/tCHnk9WYScU

Edited December 10, 2019 by s30foster

[timbrass]

5 hours ago, Badlands said:

Why does anyone think another referendum would have a different outcome?

That's what polling post mid 2017 has consistently said....

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_on_the_United_Kingdom's_membership_of_the_European_Union_(2016–present)

[Crazyfool01]

I just dream of having someone like Jacinda Ardern as PM .... that would just be incredible ...

 

[FuzzyDunlop]

This is my seat.

As an aside - I have had 3 Brexit Party leaflets, 3 Tory.... 1 labour and that was yesterday

https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/once-safe-labour-seat-turned-17350184

[Crazyfool01]

I wonder how many trees were chopped down for Election leaflets ? I seem to get one every other day from lib dems and a phone call told them to stop wasting their time ( id already decided to vote for them  )   ... and a couple from the torys .... no doorstep visits though unless ive missed them ? fortunately ive avoided having the awfull Rebecca Pow on my doorstep with her horrendous commons voting record and grasping at any potential media opportunities 

[stuie]

7 minutes ago, crazyfool1 said:

I wonder how many trees were chopped down for Election leaflets ? I seem to get one every other day from lib dems and a phone call told them to stop wasting their time ( id already decided to vote for them  )   ... and a couple from the torys .... no doorstep visits though unless ive missed them ? fortunately ive avoided having the awfull Rebecca Pow on my doorstep with her horrendous commons voting record and grasping at any potential media opportunities 

Just had a look at her voting record.  She's basically the same as my local Tory - Craig McKinlay.

Against gay rights, equality and human rights.

For reducing taxes for corporations and banks and cutting benefits

For military action.

They are all cut from the same cloth.

 

[Crazyfool01]

3 minutes ago, stuie said:

Just had a look at her voting record.  She's basically the same as my local Tory - Craig McKinlay.

Against gay rights, equality and human rights.

For reducing taxes for corporations and banks and cutting benefits

For military action.

They are all cut from the same cloth.

 

Absolutely ... it beggars belief in this day and age that people still vote for this shit  ... lets hope for a shock .. i hold out hope that ive seen 0 posters supporting her but lots for the lib dems ... but not sure this will count for anything ... fingers crossed for tomooro 

[grilladelphia]

10 minutes ago, crazyfool1 said:

Absolutely ... it beggars belief in this day and age that people still vote for this shit  ... lets hope for a shock .. i hold out hope that ive seen 0 posters supporting her but lots for the lib dems ... but not sure this will count for anything ... fingers crossed for tomooro 

Holding out hope but the last few years have been a shit-show and I don't want to be too disappointed tomorrow..

[Crazyfool01]

2 hours ago, grilladelphia said:

Holding out hope but the last few years have been a shit-show and I don't want to be too disappointed tomorrow..

Those straws we are clutching at are going to have a limited supply tomorrow ...I blame brexit for the supply issues 

[Homer]

My optimism is dwindling and I am now officially bricking it.

[squirrelarmy]

Has anyone got a fridge I can hide in till it all blows over