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Brexit at Glasto?

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44 minutes ago, Scott129 said:

Exactly this! Brexit is a tory mess. They called the referendum to sort out a party problem, they called an election so they could wipe the floor with labour and deliver as hard and shit a Brexit as they wanted, they spent 2 years arguinung over what their position on withdrawal actually was, they bungled negotiations, they're risking no deal. Yet Corbyn seems to attract way more scrutiny than tories in this mess. 

Also, the exact reason why remain will lose a second referrendum imo. They'll spend the campaign attacking Corbyn rather than leave, they just can't help themselves

Yep, their campaign would be a mixture of attacking Corbyn and patronising leave voters--good luck with that! 

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1 minute ago, shoptildrop said:

Petition is shooting up at a rapid rate 888,774 signatures at moment - probably hit a million in over an hour or 2, but will it make any difference??

I asked the same question about this and the march at the weekend. Will it make any difference? No. The argument for it from the people I've spoken with who are planning to attend is that at very least they can look back and say they made their stand, futile or not

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45 minutes ago, Scott129 said:

Exactly this! Brexit is a tory mess. They called the referendum to sort out a party problem, they called an election so they could wipe the floor with labour and deliver as hard and shit a Brexit as they wanted, they spent 2 years arguinung over what their position on withdrawal actually was, they bungled negotiations, they're risking no deal. Yet Corbyn seems to attract way more scrutiny than tories in this mess. 

Also, the exact reason why remain will lose a second referrendum imo. They'll spend the campaign attacking Corbyn rather than leave, they just can't help themselves

Aye but personally I expect it from the tories, labour haven't stepped up. I follow it all relatively closely and have no idea what Labour's stance is at this point. Do they have an alternative plan? Their website makes it clear they support leaving and want to stay in the customs union but there's nothing actually there.

Times have changed since people were attacking Corbyn a couple of years ago. He's not the promise of something better any more he's proven he can't lead. With various factors thrown in (corbyn obviously isn't the only reason for this) we're at a point where Labour isn't fit to do anything really, not even challenge the tories at their weakest in a decade (who also don't look up to doing much). Just looks like we're fucked.

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28 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

Brexit is a tory mess. Who's going to save us from it?

It's definitely not going to the tories, is it? They want the mess.

It's not going to be Corbyn either. :( 

Which is why he gets the criticism he does.

Corbyn can't do anything without tory mps, unless you have some magic solution that allows him to initiate and pass legislation without a majority in favour of it. 

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1 minute ago, Mr.Tease said:

Yep, their campaign would be a mixture of attacking Corbyn and patronising leave voters--good luck with that! 

so the geezers who criticise Blairites for not voting against tory austerity happily support Corbyn for doing nothing to try and avert a tory brexit. 

Perhaps with "well, people voted for it" tagged on and that can't be ignored, forgetting that people also voted for a huge spending-cuts programme.

(if they don't think he's doing nothing then he's actively working for his own Labour-owned brexit. Be careful what you wish for!).

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3 minutes ago, Mr.Tease said:

Corbyn can't do anything without tory mps

and nor could the Blairites who abstained (just once) against just-public-voted-for spending cuts, but that doesn't stop Corbynistas from hanging them for it. ;) 

Edited by eFestivals

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40 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

Blair inherited a country that had taken up Thatcherism, and concentrated his efforts on the things which could be done with public support and not the things he'd have to fight the public about. Consequently he got shit-loads done, even if it didn't go as far as many would have wanted.

(personally I think Blair could and should have been bolder because he had the support to do it, but that's ancient history now).

 

And yet the left and the right aren't really picking up the lost support. It's disillusionment in all politicians, here in the UK too.

And it's because there's a public who prefer to be fed an undeliverable lie than to havre a relatively-honest politician tell them how it has to be (just look what happened with May when she suggested actually funding greater govt welfare! Those voters went to labour who promised the world on a stick for free)

 

Sanders is about as left wing as Cameron.

That aside, those that might have indicated support for him in the poll you're referencing weren't asked "are you left wing", they were asked to choose between Sanders and Trump.

In case you missed it, a huge proportion of Labour's votes in 2017 were in spite of Corbyn and not because of him.

As I say, the merits of Blairs leadership are a different debate but he never tackled the economic foundations, he just did Thatcherism with more redistribution. And thats because he didnt believe that was the right thing to do (so a shift from any previous labour leader). Which is exactly why it was so easy for the tories to come in and reverse it. Whereas that wasn't possible under the transformative labour government of 1945

Your right thats is disillusionment but surely you would accept the Corbyn project got a lot of people enthused in politics for the first time. A lot more so than Miliband did by not fighting back on austerity. 

He's a democratic socialist acting within the boundaries of possibility in the US now. Whilst moderate here, it is radical there 

And I agree on Corbyn, it was the policies that got people inspired. Which is exactly why the meh politics of centrists are a dying breed

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21 minutes ago, priest17 said:

I follow it all relatively closely and have no idea what Labour's stance is at this point. Do they have an alternative plan?

Sorry but I really don't understand how people think labours policy is unclear. They want to negotiate a permanent customs union and strong access to the single market. If tories refuse to play ball and negotiate an awful deal or no deal, then labour backs bringing it back to the people either via an election or referendum. 

That was set out by Corbyn October 2017 and has been the policy since

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8 minutes ago, Scott129 said:

Sorry but I really don't understand how people think labours policy is unclear. They want to negotiate a permanent customs union and strong access to the single market. If tories refuse to play ball and negotiate an awful deal or no deal, then labour backs bringing it back to the people either via an election or referendum. 

That was set out by Corbyn October 2017 and has been the policy since

The Torries and the Right-Wing media just like to claim labour have no plan because they have nothing positive to say about their own.

The whole talk shit about someone till it sinks propaganda campaign. 

Edited by Xeph1995

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9 minutes ago, Scott129 said:

Sorry but I really don't understand how people think labours policy is unclear. They want to negotiate a permanent customs union and strong access to the single market. If tories refuse to play ball and negotiate an awful deal or no deal, then labour backs bringing it back to the people either via an election or referendum. 

That was set out by Corbyn October 2017 and has been the policy since

So why not support May’s deal? That’s still possible under the withdrawal agreeement. The first step towards what Labour want is the exact same sort of deal May is putting up. Which is why people don’t understand Labours position.

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1 minute ago, Scott129 said:

Sorry but I really don't understand how people think labours policy is unclear. They want to negotiate a permanent customs union and strong access to the single market. If tories refuse to play ball and negotiate an awful deal or no deal, then labour backs bringing it back to the people either via an election or referendum. 

That was set out by Corbyn October 2017 and has been the policy since

They've said numerous different things about bringing it back to the people, sometimes only days apart. They want to negotiate access to the single market without freedom of movement? What's their take on the backstop? Having seen Corbyn make contact with another human being, do you think he could negotiate any of this? All the shit decisions May makes, the dissarray of the tories and just how generally bad at interacting with people she is, she still manages to show up Corbyn most weeks at PMQs (can you imagine him against Cameron? Jesus).

I know PMQs alone isn't good enough to judge him but combine it with his other interactions and what you know about him do you think he'd get anything at the negotiation table? (besides maybe calling the people on the other side of the table stupid...)

 

I like Corbyn as a man, I respect his political career upto this point and was really hopefull when he first got the leadership role. It was exciting for the first time in a while. But the excitements worn off and I don't know how much more proof people need that he's not a good leader. 

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19 minutes ago, DeanoL said:

So why not support May’s deal? That’s still possible under the withdrawal agreeement. The first step towards what Labour want is the exact same sort of deal May is putting up. Which is why people don’t understand Labours position.

Because Mays red lines are causing a huge issue.

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27 minutes ago, DeanoL said:

So why not support May’s deal? That’s still possible under the withdrawal agreeement. The first step towards what Labour want is the exact same sort of deal May is putting up. Which is why people don’t understand Labours position.

Because it is tied to the political declaration which sets out a free trade agreement which would be bad for the economy, which needs a customs union. It would also fall on the tories to negotiate that. 

 

25 minutes ago, priest17 said:

They've said numerous different things about bringing it back to the people, sometimes only days apart. They want to negotiate access to the single market without freedom of movement? What's their take on the backstop? Having seen Corbyn make contact with another human being, do you think he could negotiate any of this? All the shit decisions May makes, the dissarray of the tories and just how generally bad at interacting with people she is, she still manages to show up Corbyn most weeks at PMQs (can you imagine him against Cameron? Jesus).

I know PMQs alone isn't good enough to judge him but combine it with his other interactions and what you know about him do you think he'd get anything at the negotiation table? (besides maybe calling the people on the other side of the table stupid...)

 

I like Corbyn as a man, I respect his political career upto this point and was really hopefull when he first got the leadership role. It was exciting for the first time in a while. But the excitements worn off and I don't know how much more proof people need that he's not a good leader. 

Whether it is negotiable or not is a different matter, the EU have signalled that it is, but it is still a clear policy. Different mps have different thoughts on when labour needs to go for a second ref admitedly. 

I don't agree he gets shown up most weeks. I think theyre both shit at pmqs. 

As i say, the EU seem to suggest Labours plan would be a good way through this and Barnier comes across as much more comfortable in Corbyn prescence. I'm sure we can agree Corbyn wouldn't have started negotiations so aggressively and been so hostile to the EU, like May did, so that would have been a better start

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46 minutes ago, Scott129 said:

And thats because he didnt believe that was the right thing to do (so a shift from any previous labour leader).

not correct. He didn't believe people would buy into it. And on that angle he was definitely right then and he's probably still right today.

We'll get to find out whether choosing to add 25% to the national debt is popular, and whether promises of only taxing the rich will pay for an endless list of promises. And then we'll find out if that stance can win 3 elections in a row.

The electorate is what it is. Blair recognised he had to work with it, while the Corbynistas tell the voters needed for victory to fuck off. ;) 

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53 minutes ago, Scott129 said:

surely you would accept the Corbyn project got a lot of people enthused in politics for the first time. 

Yep. And so has Trump. And so has Brexit. And so has Scottish indy. All by the same method.

Promising the impossible.

Edited by eFestivals

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20 minutes ago, Xeph1995 said:

Because Mays red lines are causing a huge issue.

are they?

Are you hearing people wanting continued FoM, none of our own trade deals, under the rule of the ECJ, and without a say over any of it? I don't.

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3 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

are they?

Are you hearing people wanting continued FoM, none of our own trade deals, under the rule of the ECJ, and without a say over any of it? I don't.

I mean everyone in my circle of human interaction is completely fine with FoM.

FoM is something that that I strongly believe in. 

Edited by Xeph1995

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2 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

are they?

Are you hearing people wanting continued FoM, none of our own trade deals, under the rule of the ECJ, and without a say over any of it? I don't.

Well yeah, those of us that want that just want to Remain. But honestly I would take staying in the single market, reciprocal Freedom of Movement and remaining under the ECJ with no say in it over May's deal or no deal.

It's a silly deal, it's BINO, and so I don't want to argue *for* it as remaining is better. But if the Leave contingent don't shift on the "we have to leave, whatever" then yes, it's the method of leaving I would choose. 

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18 minutes ago, Scott129 said:

Because it is tied to the political declaration which sets out a free trade agreement which would be bad for the economy, which needs a customs union. It would also fall on the tories to negotiate that. 

nothing in the political declaration is binding. May's deal could go thru and we can still negotiate Corbyn's dream brexit.

It'll always fall on the tories to negotiate it whenever the tories are in power.

 

18 minutes ago, Scott129 said:

Whether it is negotiable or not is a different matter, the EU have signalled that it is, but it is still a clear policy.

it's far from a clear policy. When was the last time your heard the words 'freedom of movement' when Corbyn talks about his dream deal?

 

18 minutes ago, Scott129 said:

I don't agree he gets shown up most weeks. I think theyre both shit at pmqs. 

he's got much better than he was. Most weeks nowadays he's managing a draw with the shittest PM ever.

Hey, it's progress. :) 

 

18 minutes ago, Scott129 said:

As i say, the EU seem to suggest Labours plan would be a good way through this

as far as the EU is concerned, the lesser we leave by the better the deal.

That's all the EU are saying really.

 

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4 minutes ago, Xeph1995 said:

I mean everyone in my circle of human interaction is completely fine with FoM.

Mine too, but that's nothing of what I asked about.

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3 minutes ago, DeanoL said:

But honestly I would take staying in the single market, reciprocal Freedom of Movement and remaining under the ECJ with no say in it over May's deal or no deal.

if that's where it would end then maybe it would be worth it. 

I almost lean more to May's deal or no deal, cos that's where we'd go anyway - but with decades more bitterness - if we did the no-say option.

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4 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

if that's where it would end then maybe it would be worth it. 

I almost lean more to May's deal or no deal, cos that's where we'd go anyway - but with decades more bitterness - if we did the no-say option.

Regardless of the deal or lack off we get there is going to be decades of bitterness by everyone who wanted to remain.

And I am confident that a bigger majority would want to stay if a 2nd referendum where to take place. 

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11 minutes ago, Xeph1995 said:

 

Regardless of the deal or lack off we get there is going to be decades of bitterness by everyone who wanted to remain.

And I am confident that a bigger majority would want to stay if a 2nd referendum where to take place. 

Oh, there's going to be decades of bitterness, but there's no point trying to sate the bitterness of the headbangers. They'd be bitter even if they got their perfect brexit, claiming someone else had done them over; but what we don't want to do is let them taste victory because they'll keep on pushing (and win because BINO is shit).

And yep, I'm pretty confident that a vote where people had to vote FOR an option and not for or against something would cause a significantly different result, but I'm also very happy to accept a leave win if they're endorsing a particular plan. 

Edited by eFestivals

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This is by far the worst government and Prime Minister in my lifetime, yet Corbyn-led Labour is still trailing massively in polling. That tells you all you need to know about his leadership and handling of Brexit.

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1 hour ago, eFestivals said:

not correct. He didn't believe people would buy into it. And on that angle he was definitely right then and he's probably still right today.

He's come out since leaving office and said he believes in neoliberal economics. Its not a case of sacrificing your principles to achieve electorally, it is a case of his principles being neoliberalism. 

A Corbyn majority government (if it happened) would achieve better and longer lasting change for the majority of the country in one term than Blair did in 3

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