Brexit at Glasto?

[eFestivals]

1 minute ago, H.M.V said:

Corbyn has been in politics for decades. It's only recently he has been accused of AS.

I'd say that's mis-understanding things.

The politics he's been part of for decades is a politics that has often stood alongside anti-semites. It's a long standing thing for that part of 'the left'.

Corbyn personally has (for example) stood on a platform alongside someone from Hamas*, who he called "my friend" (he's since apologised for this).

(* you can't really doubt Hamas's AS 'credentials', given their charter).

It might have been called out as AS at the time, but probably not, as no one was paying much attention to the wackier parts of 'the left'. It was standard fayre, what anyone who knew that part of the left would expect would go on.

None of that is saying Corbyn is personally AS, but it is what it is, and it was always obvious he'd be haunted by his baggage. 

[H.M.V]

If only we could all have perfect colleagues. I understand what you're saying. You've always been enormously more informed on this subject than me. I still believe that labour are the way forward and maybe he can do more about AS, Islamaphobia and racism when he's in a better position to make the changes. I believe the NHS will be in safer hands. However will be voting Lib Dem tactically. 

[Avalon_Fields]

The issue is of crucial importance in my constituency, Bury South, with one of the largest Jewish communities in the UK, who traditionally vote Labour. It’s looking likely they will change allegiance, especially as the Jewish ex-Labour MP Ivan Lewis, running as an independent, is now recommending they vote Tory. Bizarre, seeing as he’s a candidate!

So, from what I understand, my local Jewish community believe, and are scared of, the direction of the Labour Party. 

[CaledonianGonzo]

My MP's an Irish lesbian who's probably done more to stop Brexit than almost any other parliamentarian (and is also the right tactical choice to shut out the Tories) - but if I vote for her again I'm a raging, flag-waving xenophobe. What a palaver and no mistake. 

[ian the worm]

Today I shook Jeremys red right hand and wished him well. 

[mcshed]

1 hour ago, CaledonianGonzo said:

My MP's an Irish lesbian who's probably done more to stop Brexit than almost any other parliamentarian (and is also the right tactical choice to shut out the Tories) - but if I vote for her again I'm a raging, flag-waving xenophobe. What a palaver and no mistake. 

I'm not really slagging her off but isn't it her mum that's Irish not her?

[CaledonianGonzo]

2 minutes ago, mcshed said:

I'm not really slagging her off but isn't it her mum that's Irish not her?

Not sure to be fair, but she regularly claims to be Irish on the old social medias.

At any rate, she's probably more Irish than my wife, who's now proud owner of an Irish passport despite being as northern as a Eccles cake.

[mcshed]

7 minutes ago, CaledonianGonzo said:

Not sure to be fair, but she regularly claims to be Irish on the old social medias.

At any rate, she's probably more Irish than my wife, who's now proud owner of an Irish passport despite being as northern as a Eccles cake.

Assuming we are talking about Cherry, she was born and raised in Edinburgh.

[stuartbert two hats]

Remember all you influencers, get the vote out on Thursday!

[Ayrshire Chris]

[grumpyhack]

5 hours ago, eFestivals said:

I'd say that's mis-understanding things.

The politics he's been part of for decades is a politics that has often stood alongside anti-semites. It's a long standing thing for that part of 'the left'.

Corbyn personally has (for example) stood on a platform alongside someone from Hamas*, who he called "my friend" (he's since apologised for this).

(* you can't really doubt Hamas's AS 'credentials', given their charter).

It might have been called out as AS at the time, but probably not, as no one was paying much attention to the wackier parts of 'the left'. It was standard fayre, what anyone who knew that part of the left would expect would go on.

None of that is saying Corbyn is personally AS, but it is what it is, and it was always obvious he'd be haunted by his baggage. 

Don't we have to make a distinction between being anti-semitic and anti the present polices of the state of Israel?  I'm not very happy with a lot of Trump's policies but that doesn't make me a blanket anti- American - just anti the current policies of the current US government.

I was at Glasto when the Brexit referendum was held (I arranged a postal vote beforehand) and remember a lot of people walking round stunned when the result was announced.

Edited December 9, 2019 by grumpyhack

[Madyaker]

13 hours ago, eFestivals said:

this for me is where the real story is.

In a party of any size there's going to be scumbags, that part is not a surprise. It's how issues like this are dealt with that displays the competence of a leader.

Can anyone imagine something like the AS thing getting so out of control it was still a story 3 years later under someone like Blair? Nope, me neither.

This is pretty much it. Politics is a dirty game and people will use anything to get an edge over their opponents. This is a problem for labour because Corbyn wasn’t able to effectively bury it, instead it was allowed to fester and so it’s still haunting him. You guys really have a double whammy of a malicious governing party and totally incompetent opposition incapable of holding them to account. The first past the post system is the root of a lot of the problems in UK politics and yet you don’t hear anyone talking about changing that. 

Edited December 10, 2019 by Madyaker

[eFestivals]

8 hours ago, grumpyhack said:

Don't we have to make a distinction between being anti-semitic and anti the present polices of the state of Israel? 

with Hamas, it's the same thing.

[CaledonianGonzo]

3 hours ago, eFestivals said:

with Hamas, it's the same thing.

It's not really. The charter you were talking about on the last page is from 1988 and has been disavowed by the current leadership. It was updated a couple of years back.

[eFestivals]

2 minutes ago, CaledonianGonzo said:

It's not really. The charter you were talking about on the last page is from 1988 and has been disavowed by the current leadership. It was updated a couple of years back.

and Jez was calling Hamas "my friend" when...?  

[CaledonianGonzo]

15 hours ago, mcshed said:

Assuming we are talking about Cherry, she was born and raised in Edinburgh.

In that case I will continue to the vote the fuck out of her. There are some areas where I find her problematic - she's a bit of a terf - but I find her astute and on the money in just about all other quadrants. May shebreturn to the house of commons and continue to roast the fuck out of whoever finds themselves in her path.

 

Just now, eFestivals said:

and Jez was calling Hamas "my friend" when...?  

Yeah. I'm not defending that specifically - although charter scrutiny turns out to be an easy gotcha. Just defending Hamas.

[eFestivals]

9 minutes ago, CaledonianGonzo said:

Yeah. I'm not defending that specifically - although charter scrutiny turns out to be an easy gotcha. Just defending Hamas.

they're still committed to the destruction of Israel, they just use different words for it.

And it's funny, cos you never hear calls for the destruction of the many Islamic states around the word just because they're Islamic states.  

[CaledonianGonzo]

To be fair, I'm on board with that and can absolutely get behind the destruction of Israel - in its current form as an ethnonationalist theocracy.  Same for Saudi Arabia.  Difference with the latter is they're not occupying anyone else's land whilst being an ethnonationalist theocracy.

 

[CaledonianGonzo]

Hey @doogie. Let's discuss this like adults.

[eFestivals]

1 minute ago, CaledonianGonzo said:

To be fair, I'm on board with that and can absolutely get behind the destruction of Israel - in its current form as an ethnonationalist theocracy.  Same for Saudi Arabia. 

When you start to hear the same politicos who call for the destruction of Israel talk as much about all of the other 'ethnonationalist theocracies' get back to me. 

 

1 minute ago, CaledonianGonzo said:

Difference with the latter is they're not occupying anyone else's land 

Hmmm. The vast majority of those Palestinians weren't born on Israeli land, while the vast majority of Israeli's were. 

Which makes that claim a little difficult to stand up in a real world.

I'm hugely sympathetic to the plight of the Palestinians, but that doesn't mean I'll jump on board in support of the policies which have seen them fail and fail and fail again - while making their own circumstances worse and worse - when in the world that exists Israel isn't going anywhere.

[CaledonianGonzo]

3 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

When you start to hear the same politicos who call for the destruction of Israel talk as much about all of the other 'ethnonationalist theocracies' get back to me. 

"Destruction of Israel" is your framing here. Specifically as it applies to Corbyn- any examples of him demanding it?

4 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

Hmmm. The vast majority of those Palestinians weren't born on Israeli land, while the vast majority of Israeli's were. 

Which makes that claim a little difficult to stand up in a real world.

I'm hugely sympathetic to the plight of the Palestinians, but that doesn't mean I'll jump on board in support of the policies which have seen them fail and fail and fail again - while making their own circumstances worse and worse - when in the world that exists Israel isn't going anywhere.

"Israeli land" 

[eFestivals]

21 minutes ago, CaledonianGonzo said:

"Destruction of Israel" is your framing here. Specifically as it applies to Corbyn- any examples of him demanding it?

Not that I'm aware of, but standing with someone from Hamas and calling them 'my friend' isn't exactly rejecting that either.  

I wasn't trying to suggest what Corbyn may or may not think - it was why I included that he's apologised for 'my friend'. 

I was giving some context to how come the AS thing has been thrown in his direction.

 

Quote

"Israeli land" 

I hesitated before using that, knowing it might be pulled up on.  

I went with it because it draws specific lines on a map that can't be indicated with any other words. Palestine is different lines.

Edited December 10, 2019 by eFestivals

[CaledonianGonzo]

Yeah - I understand why people him have labelled him an antisemite. And there do seem to be areas where he's not covered himself in glory in addressing antisemitism in the wider Labour movement. 

I dunno man. Back in April I went to a Hezbollah museum 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tourist_Landmark_of_the_Resistance

We sat through an introductory video from Hassan Nasralla then got shown round a load of machine gun bunkers by a jihadi.  It was a politely, civilly explicitly anti-Zionist place, but despite the Israeli invasion of Lebanon being in violation of international law and Hezbollah and the lads being well within their rights to take up arms I'm still uneasy bringing it up here because it's way more incriminating and "antisemitic" than anything Corbyn's ever done. Wound up debating Brexit with the mujahideen guy, who seemed to have a doctorate in international politics from somewhere in Paris. A great day out.

51 minutes ago, CaledonianGonzo said:

Hey @doogie. Let's discuss this like adults.

You too, Dickfingers.

[eFestivals]

1 minute ago, CaledonianGonzo said:

... but despite the Israeli invasion of Lebanon being in violation of international law and Hezbollah and the lads being well within their rights to take up arms ....

There's defensive action.

And then there's lobbing missiles over the fence.

 

[CaledonianGonzo]

Better to focus on that than to ask why the fence is there in the first place.