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Brexit at Glasto?


kalifire
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6 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

but regions don't count for shit. It's only the UK total which counts.

What's the UK total in that poll?

Not sure, but the problem with the region splits is it will scare MP's outside London and Scotland

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Just now, Mr.Tease said:

Not sure, but the problem with the region splits is it will scare MP's outside London and Scotland

the problem remains the same, that MPs don't want to be responsible for choosing to do something that's only bad (whatever choice they make).

So the solution remains the same, to give it back to the public so the public take responsibility for the choice.

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Wow, Bercow votes No, so no indicative votes on Monday. Big and LibDems may have made a big miscalculation by not voting for Common Market 2.0 last time- if that had got a majority it would have set the parameters for the May/Corbyn discussions.

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11 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

the problem remains the same, that MPs don't want to be responsible for choosing to do something that's only bad (whatever choice they make).

So the solution remains the same, to give it back to the public so the public take responsibility for the choice.

Ah, here are the national results:

 

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1 minute ago, Mr.Tease said:

Ah, here are the national results:

no-deal isn't likely to be put up for a public vote, so there's probably not too much reason to worry about that one.

Personally I think it would probably better to take the risk of a vote on it. If this country is stupid enough to vote itself out on those terms then that's how things are.

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1 hour ago, eFestivals said:

no-deal isn't likely to be put up for a public vote, so there's probably not too much reason to worry about that one.

Personally I think it would probably better to take the risk of a vote on it. If this country is stupid enough to vote itself out on those terms then that's how things are.

As Carlo Cipolla outlined in the first of his five basic laws of stupidity:

Law 1: Always and inevitably everyone underestimates the number of stupid individuals in circulation

I never thought Britain would actually crash out in the end but I must say that I’m starting to worry now...

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I think Jeremy Corbyn comes under some very unfair criticism.  There are some people who seem to follow his every move looking for something to complain about, they seem as fanatically anti-Corbyn as the so-called Corbynistas are pro-Corbyn.

Having said that, if he fucks this up, if he enables a Tory Brexit, then  I will not vote Labour again whilst he is at the helm.   I want whatever deal they come up with put to a public vote.  Failing that, I might possibly forgive some super-soft Brexit if they come up with something clever.  

I fear he is going to agree to May's deal with some vague concessions about workers rights or something. If that happens he can FRO.

Edited by uscore
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3 minutes ago, uscore said:

I think Jeremy Corbyn comes under some very unfair criticism.  There are some people who seem to follow his every move looking for something to complain about, they seem as fanatically anti-Corbyn as the so-called Corbynistas are pro-Corbyn.

Having said that, if he fucks this up, if he enables a Tory Brexit, then  I will not vote Labour again whilst he is at the helm.   I want whatever deal they come up with put to a public vote.  Failing that, I might possibly forgive some super-soft Brexit if they come up with something clever.  

I fear he is going to agree to May's deal with some vague concessions about workers rights or something. If that happens he can FRO.

He has no incentive to- what does he gain from agreeing to May's deal with some vague consessions? She has zero leverage. 

However, I think the talks are a charade as no senior brexiteers have resigned from the cabinet (only 2 minor ones) - if May was seriously going to have Labour guide the rest of brexit there's no way they'd put up with it. 

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The main thing he needs to avoid is May shovelling more of the blame for brexit on to him and the labour party. The tories need to own this. Although I think he does deserve some critism. Anyone with a brain knows that brexit in any form is a bad thing for the U.K and a massive leap into the unknown and as the opposition he and his party should have been calling it out for the madness it is since 2015 and they should have pushed relentlessly to stop it. Instead he flip flopped along with an ambiguous postion that changed depending on which way the political winds were blowing at the time. Yes some in his party supported it but most didn't and most labour voters certainly didn't. If he had more of a backbone and had coordinated a proper campaign against it before the vote in 2016 I think it's likely that it wouldn't have been voted in favor of. He has been a weak oppostion leader when it comes to brexit.

Edited by Madyaker
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1 minute ago, Mr.Tease said:

He has no incentive to- what does he gain from agreeing to May's deal with some vague consessions? She has zero leverage. 

I am generally pro-Corbyn, but am I suspicious of his negotiating skills and his Brexit position.  Maybe vague concessions is too light, I'd still be cross if they were quite concrete concessions.  Like, protecting workers rights is something I believe in, and having something fixed in place that guarantees matching EU regulations on certain things would be better than the Brexit on the table right now.   But it's still too Brexit for me.

4 minutes ago, Mr.Tease said:

However, I think the talks are a charade as no senior brexiteers have resigned from the cabinet (only 2 minor ones) - if May was seriously going to have Labour guide the rest of brexit there's no way they'd put up with it. 

At the moment he has to engage with it openly. Cautiously, of course, but for now Labour have to take these discussions  at face value.

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14 minutes ago, caballosblancos said:

Only a few MPs are going to emerge from the Brexit farce with any cred. But Yvette Cooper is certainly one. 

Tbf I think there's going to be a good few which will be remembered as trying to do at least something positive. Cooper is certainly one, but off the top of my head (putting party allegiances aside) I'd also name check; Starmer, Soubry, Grieve, Boles, Letwin, Sturgeon, Lucas, Blackford.

It's true that they haven't actually achieved that much yet, but at least unlike the May and Corbyn they haven't spent the last two years twiddling their thumbs pretending to do something.

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33 minutes ago, SwedgeAntilles said:

Tbf I think there's going to be a good few which will be remembered as trying to do at least something positive. Cooper is certainly one, but off the top of my head (putting party allegiances aside) I'd also name check; Starmer, Soubry, Grieve, Boles, Letwin, Sturgeon, Lucas, Blackford.

It's true that they haven't actually achieved that much yet, but at least unlike the May and Corbyn they haven't spent the last two years twiddling their thumbs pretending to do something.

even more impressive for Cooper as her constituency voted about 70% leave.

(it might be the same with others named there, I'm not sure).

She's certainly not someone who's playing it safe to keep her job.

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57 minutes ago, SwedgeAntilles said:

Tbf I think there's going to be a good few which will be remembered as trying to do at least something positive. Cooper is certainly one, but off the top of my head (putting party allegiances aside) I'd also name check; Starmer, Soubry, Grieve, Boles, Letwin, Sturgeon, Lucas, Blackford.

It's true that they haven't actually achieved that much yet, but at least unlike the May and Corbyn they haven't spent the last two years twiddling their thumbs pretending to do something.

Would add Savile-Roberts to that if you're adding Sturgeon, Lucas and Blackford.

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1 hour ago, SwedgeAntilles said:

Tbf I think there's going to be a good few which will be remembered as trying to do at least something positive. Cooper is certainly one, but off the top of my head (putting party allegiances aside) I'd also name check; Starmer, Soubry, Grieve, Boles, Letwin, Sturgeon, Lucas, Blackford.

It's true that they haven't actually achieved that much yet, but at least unlike the May and Corbyn they haven't spent the last two years twiddling their thumbs pretending to do something.

I've been very impressed by Peter Kyle (of the Kyle-Wilson amendment). Has always been able to make his case clearly on the TV - this whole mess has at least highlighted some decent politicians.

Labour's junior Brexit minister Matthew Pennycook is also one to watch. Still relatively new to Parliament, young and looks very self assured in Parliament. 

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on no deal - it would be really good to understand the question, since (and I need to find the reference) there's a study that showed a number of people thought "no deal" was getting rid of brexit, i.e. cancelling the whole thing.

 

EDIT - ok, did my research and I'm talking bollocks. Only 4% think that way.

Edited by hfuhruhurr
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25 minutes ago, hfuhruhurr said:

on no deal - it would be really good to understand the question, since (and I need to find the reference) there's a study that showed a number of people thought "no deal" was getting rid of brexit, i.e. cancelling the whole thing.

 

EDIT - ok, did my research and I'm talking bollocks. Only 4% think that way.

To be fair though, 4% is a huge swing in such a tight discussion. Imagine if 4% had voted the other way in the original referendum for example...

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The sheer stupidity of some who back brexit is what worries me.... Listening to some of the oldies in work last weekend talking about it basically. wondering why we don't just say to hell with democracy and walk off holding our ball with no thourght what so ever for any consequences .... Oh and anyone who trys to derail that is a traitor to the nation.......because there's clearly nothing at stake here is there? And how dare the younger generations not want their futures thrown off a cliff with no thourght! 

I just keep my mouth shut it's not even worth arguing with people with such little capacity for basic common sense and logic.....id get more constructive ideas out of the fucking canteen vending machines ???

 

 

Edited by waterfalls21234
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