Brexit at Glasto?

[Sasperella]

5 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

there is. A principled one.

You know, like those tory MPs are who are prepared to go against their party to avoid a shit brexit.

Trying to game it is the same as the ERG are doing. That gets seen for what it is, and the same is true for labour.

There is nothing really that principled about ignoring half the population just because we don't like what they said. Yes, I know all the reasons why they were deluded etc etc.... I've heard them a million times, but I still find an air of elitism about the suggestion that they're all just stupid and can therefore be ignored.

My dad, step-dad and step-mum all voted out. As well as a lot of other people I know. They're not racist, but they are exactly the kind of working-class voter Labour needs to be targeting in the next election....ideally with some non-Brexit messages!

Edited April 2, 2019 by Sasperella

[uscore]

I'm going to keep my prediction of there being a lengthy delay.  Both sides will make noises against it, particularly the EU, but it still remains a marginally better option than no-deal chaos.

I don't think May's deal will get through a fourth time, although it might be closer again.

Less confidently I predict a general election, and even less confidently I predict a slightly better majority for the Tories as a result of it.

 

If I were a Brexiter I'd go for May's deal, or any of the fudges on offer.  They are all shit Brexits, but they are steps in the "right" direction.  Once you are signed up to some deal that has you half in half out you can continue to point out how rubbish it is and how we have to leave completely to fix things.

 

 

 

[Mr.Tease]

The more I think about it the more angry I get that TIG and the Lib Dems voted against Common Market 2.0. Considering Remain lost the referendum, and all the chaos and risk in the political system at the moment, Common Market 2.0 would have been a big win. Now they've chosen to flush that down the toilet to take a more risky process (which they might not even get) to get to a destination that is essentially the same (are the differences between remain and Common Market 2.0 really worth risking no deal or May's deal for?).

For months they've been saying "oh, Jeremy Corbyn is facilitating a hard/Tory brexit"- which is exactly what they're doing now, unwittingly.

They've completely handed the momentum back to May, who can now say 'none of the alternatives got a majority', and it probably makes the EU less likely to help us out. Madness!

[eFestivals]

17 minutes ago, Sasperella said:

There is nothing really that principled about ignoring half the population just because we don't like what they said. Yes, I know all the reasons why they were deluded etc etc.... I've heard them a million times, but I still find an air of elitism about the suggestion that they're all just stupid and can therefore be ignored.

Did I say that?

Ultimately the reason why they should be ignored is because they're wrong, and also because they could never be satisfied anyway. 

 

 

17 minutes ago, Sasperella said:

My dad, step-dad and step-mum all voted out. As well as a lot of other people I know. They're not racist, but they are exactly the kind of working-class voter Labour needs to be targeting in the next election....ideally with some non-Brexit messages!

Anyone who's still supporting tories or brexit are not people who any rational message can appeal to.

When you cannot satisfy the right thing to do is to stop trying.

[eFestivals]

Just now, Mr.Tease said:

Common Market 2.0 would have been a big win

only if it *really* addresses the brexit issue.

Will brexiters accept a CU solution? Nope.
Will remainers accept a CU solution? Nope.

A CU solution is the version of brexit which ensure brexit never goes away. It's the worst of all of them, because we'll leave that CU within a decade so we might as well hard brexit now.

[uscore]

2 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

 

A CU solution is the version of brexit which ensure brexit never goes away. It's the worst of all of them, because we'll leave that CU within a decade so we might as well hard brexit now.

This is why I think hard Brexiters should accept any Brexit, because they can still continue to chip at away at it.  If they push too hard now they might end up with no Brexit or a referendum.  (Don't tell them this strategy though)

Edited April 2, 2019 by uscore

[eFestivals]

Just now, uscore said:

This is why I think hard Brexiters should accept any Brexit, because they can still continue to chip at away at it.  If they push too hard now they might end up with no Brexit or a referendum.  (Don't tell them this strategy though)

the headbanger brexiters are smart enough to realise remaining is better than a CU solution.

Which is more switched on that those advocating the CU solution.

[hfuhruhurr]

I'm still gobsmacked that no one is attacking the process. It's clear (self evident!) that the process (A50) doesn't work.

Leavers - you need to revoke, prepare for no-deal, in your own time, with your values in charge beholden to no one, and re-invoke and leave.

Remainers - you need to revoke and then reform from within the EU (to bring soft leavers onside). There's an excellent opportunity to reform and make the EU more relevant, more modular, more transparent etc. Loads of people throughout the EU want that.

Either way, put the UK back in charge by revoking.

[eFestivals]

9 minutes ago, hfuhruhurr said:

I'm still gobsmacked that no one is attacking the process. It's clear (self evident!) that the process (A50) doesn't work.

the process works fine.

What doesn't work is the idea that leaving can be beneficial. The leavers sold bullshit.

If leaving was really a bonus there'd be none of this problem - which only shows that it's not the process, it's the claims that have taken us into a process where the only outcome is pain.

You might as well be saying that amputation is the solution but the surgeon's saw  is the problem.  

[hfuhruhurr]

3 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

You might as well be saying that amputation is the solution but the surgeon's saw  is the problem

What I'm saying is that the current process is lop it off with the potential to bleed to death (likely)

Change the process and the arm comes off (agreed, stupid idea, but hey) but the patient lives (albeit lopsided).

With any luck, the goons will figure out there's f all wrong with the arm and not remove it.

 

(methinks it's more of a castration)

[eFestivals]

2 minutes ago, hfuhruhurr said:

Change the process

uh?

Why would a golf club set its terms to benefit non-members at the expense of the members?  

Just because the process is shit for the country leaving doesn't mean the process is wrong.

Instead it's making clear the benefits of membership.

[mcshed]

44 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

only if it *really* addresses the brexit issue.

Will brexiters accept a CU solution? Nope.
Will remainers accept a CU solution? Nope.

A CU solution is the version of brexit which ensure brexit never goes away. It's the worst of all of them, because we'll leave that CU within a decade so we might as well hard brexit now.

Do you think any solution is going to make Brexit go away? Do you not think we're still going to be talking about Europe in a decade's time no matter what happens?

[eFestivals]

5 minutes ago, mcshed said:

Do you think any solution is going to make Brexit go away? 

It won't go away completely with any solution, but some will make it go away more than others.

A CU is the version which has it alive for the longest and loudest, and will still have us 'proper' brexit somewhen down the line.

Edited April 2, 2019 by eFestivals

[hfuhruhurr]

19 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

uh?

Why would a golf club set its terms to benefit non-members at the expense of the members?  

Just because the process is shit for the country leaving doesn't mean the process is wrong.

Instead it's making clear the benefits of membership.

Misunderstand - I'm not talking about the EU changing, why should they. The Leavers need to change their process if they want a hard/soft/daft/vassal or whatever brexit. Let them take back control - by revoking.

Meanwhile, we hope for sense to prevail and the leave party not ever getting anywhere ever again.

[mcshed]

33 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

It won't go away completely with any solution, but some will make it go away more than others.

A CU is the version which has it alive for the longest and loudest, and will still have us 'proper' brexit somewhen down the line.

You seem very certain of the long term effects of what is clearly a complicated situation. Ultras on both sides are going to make sure that Europe remains a central issue in British politics for years to come how public opinion moves no one can say. 

[Wooderson]

You think these racist shitpipes will return to the holes they crawled out of 3 years ago once you leave the EU? FLMAO. Decades of social unrest on the horizon. UK isolated internationally and at each others throats locally. Tories will be blamed but will suffer negligible consequences. All the noticeable pain will be suffered by the Left. This is Corbyn's doing. A vile odious loser.

 

[mcshed]

4 minutes ago, Wooderson said:

You think these racist shitpipes will return to the holes they crawled out of 3 years ago once you leave the EU? FLMAO. Decades of social unrest on the horizon. UK isolated internationally and at each others throats locally. Tories will be blamed but will suffer negligible consequences. All the noticeable pain will be suffered by the Left. This is Corbyn's doing. A vile odious loser.

 

Was that directed at me? I said I don't think this going away no matter what, which is why I think the fact that a CU won't put it to bed isn't a big mark against.

[uscore]

5 minutes ago, Wooderson said:

You think these racist shitpipes will return to the holes they crawled out of 3 years ago once you leave the EU? FLMAO. Decades of social unrest on the horizon. UK isolated internationally and at each others throats locally. Tories will be blamed but will suffer negligible consequences. All the noticeable pain will be suffered by the Left. This is Corbyn's doing. A vile odious loser.

 

I'm not a fan of Corbyn's handling of Brexit but it seems particularly harsh to lay all this blame on him.

[eFestivals]

19 minutes ago, mcshed said:

You seem very certain of the long term effects of what is clearly a complicated situation. Ultras on both sides are going to make sure that Europe remains a central issue in British politics for years to come how public opinion moves no one can say. 

what woody said.

And they'll be much worse if they feel they've been stitched up with the softest brexit than they will if they get something close to their desires or if a50 is revoked via another ref. A CU will feed a stabbed in the back myth more than anything, and because the world won't be magically better it'll be because it's not a 'proper' brexit - and the half-step justifies the full step as its replacement.

 

[Wooderson]

Just now, mcshed said:

Was that directed at me? I said I don't think this going away no matter what, which is why I think the fact that a CU won't put it to bed isn't a big mark against.

Not at you mate no. Just a level of angry frustration at the silly Corbyn supporters who think his appeasement will bring stability/harmony/prosperity. It won't. Caring about "leave" voters in labour territory will be judged in years to be as bad a miscalculation politically as triggering A-50 prior to having the slightest clue what to do. Two enormous fuckups post Cameron.

[mcshed]

1 minute ago, eFestivals said:

what woody said.

And they'll be much worse if they feel they've been stitched up with the softest brexit than they will if they get something close to their desires or if a50 is revoked via another ref. A CU will feed a stabbed in the back myth more than anything, and because the world won't be magically better it'll be because it's not a 'proper' brexit - and the half-step justifies the full step as its replacement.

 

Revoke feeds a stabbed in the back myth.

A second referendum feeds a stabbed in the back myth.

A customs union feeds a stabbed in the back myth.

The single market feeds a stabbed in the back myth.

Even No Deal feeds a stabbed in the back myth. (We only crashed as Remain government didn't prepare properly.)

[strummer77]

I think the real risk now is coming from the hardcore FBPE including The Independent Group lot who won't take any compromise. They're gambling on this meaning that May will come to the end of the road balk at No Deal, and offer a People's Vote/Revoke.

However, I'm not sure that will happen. May clearly doesn't have an appetite for either of those and has a weakness for the ERG. The tactic of no compromise may work - but failing to consider a compromise is bringing No Deal closer.

[strummer77]

7 minutes ago, Wooderson said:

Not at you mate no. Just a level of angry frustration at the silly Corbyn supporters who think his appeasement will bring stability/harmony/prosperity. It won't. Caring about "leave" voters in labour territory will be judged in years to be as bad a miscalculation politically as triggering A-50 prior to having the slightest clue what to do. Two enormous fuckups post Cameron.

I don't think he's a saint or anything but a second referendum or revoke hasn't got a majority in the commons even with the threat of a No Deal just around the corner - I really don't see how championing it would have have worked prior to this.

[clarkete]

1 minute ago, strummer77 said:

I don't think he's a saint or anything but a second referendum or revoke hasn't got a majority in the commons even with the threat of a No Deal just around the corner - I really don't see how championing it would have have worked prior to this.

Although they would yesterday if all Labour MPs had backed I believe?

[eFestivals]

11 minutes ago, mcshed said:

Revoke feeds a stabbed in the back myth.

nope. A vote means it can't exist.

Plenty will feel stitched up, but they won't be able to claim that what (finally) happened was against what the people wanted.

They'll grumble like fuck of course, but it's not a stabbed in the back myth. It's 'the will of the people' (providing remain won, of course) and ultimately that kills their complaint.

 

11 minutes ago, mcshed said:

A second referendum feeds a stabbed in the back myth.

A customs union feeds a stabbed in the back myth.

The single market feeds a stabbed in the back myth.

Even No Deal feeds a stabbed in the back myth. (We only crashed as Remain government didn't prepare properly.)

Nope. See above.