Brexit at Glasto?

[Wooderson]

Dude none of these people are voting Labour. Corbyn made a bags of it. 

[Sasperella]

29 minutes ago, Mr.Tease said:

Piss off the leave voters too much and you’ll pay for it in the next election (they’ll flock to a Boris lead Tory party), allow the Tories to be the ones ‘betraying ‘ them, and you have a shot at consigning them to oblivion

Agree!

And not sure how Corbyn is to blame for pro-brexit labour voters getting fucked off.....

[Purple aki squat]

2 hours ago, Wooderson said:

Dude none of these people are voting Labour. Corbyn made a bags of it. 

Yep. Should have opposed it tooth and nail and shown a clear vision of a genuine opposition leader. He had a glorious chance to put himself firmly against everything the tories stand for and the worst government any living person has encountered.

Fortune favours the brave, and he has not been that. I like him, his rhetoric at the last election was a breath of fresh air for me but he can’t continue playing both sides and needs to show some bollocks.

If he did they would be 20 points up.

[eFestivals]

10 hours ago, Mr.Tease said:

Did a good job of selling the vision at the last election

or alternatively, May threatened to tax her voters and Jez said he'd tax other people.

Now, what was the event that saw the biggest flip to Labour during the campaign? Was it Jez's campaigning or was it May's crap campaigning? There's only one right answer.

[eFestivals]

9 hours ago, Sasperella said:

Agree!

And not sure how Corbyn is to blame for pro-brexit labour voters getting fucked off.....

he's not.

But he'd be a smarter cookie if he realised he cannot sate their wants and got off the fence, but that's hard for him to see and not going to happen when they are his own wants.  

[eFestivals]

8 hours ago, Purple aki squat said:

his rhetoric at the last election was a breath of fresh air

to be fair, it's deal easy to promise the moon on a stick. Just look at how well it worked for the SNP, for Farage, and for Trump.

Real policies that actually work as promised are a bit more difficult to sell.

[Mardy]

Yep, that's the prblem. I got caught up in it all, carried away by hope and optimism. JC at Glatonbury the other year got me all emotional. I'll admit it, I thought finally we were going to have a party that would do the right thing. And now look at them, bunch of useless bastards. And still banging on about immigration. A Labour party that doesn't believe in international solidarity. Fuck 'em.

 

"Emily Thornberry, the shadow foreign secretary, said it was Labour’s policy to be close to the single market, but not in it. “Our reservation about being in the single market is that we would have to accept things as they currently are in relation to immigration,” she said. “We can’t pretend that the referendum, part of the debate, wasn’t about immigration.”

 

[Mr.Tease]

1 hour ago, Mardy said:

Yep, that's the prblem. I got caught up in it all, carried away by hope and optimism. JC at Glatonbury the other year got me all emotional. I'll admit it, I thought finally we were going to have a party that would do the right thing. And now look at them, bunch of useless bastards. And still banging on about immigration. A Labour party that doesn't believe in international solidarity. Fuck 'em.

 

"Emily Thornberry, the shadow foreign secretary, said it was Labour’s policy to be close to the single market, but not in it. “Our reservation about being in the single market is that we would have to accept things as they currently are in relation to immigration,” she said. “We can’t pretend that the referendum, part of the debate, wasn’t about immigration.”

 

They voted for Common Market 2.0 last night which would have kept freedom of movement- tone honest I think that was always the strategy (pretend they want to end it, but end up essentially keeping it 'because they have to').

[eFestivals]

5 minutes ago, Mr.Tease said:

They voted for Common Market 2.0 last night which would have kept freedom of movement- tone honest I think that was always the strategy (pretend they want to end it, but end up essentially keeping it 'because they have to').

that might have been the strategy, but it's a shit strategy. It's not like the people who don't want FoM will think "oh, it's OK, Labour didn't really have a choice".  

Jez might be enjoying those splinters up his arse, but the simple fact is before the end of this process he's going to have to get off the fence and at that point he loses a big chunk of voters - forever.

There's no avoiding it. There's never been a way to avoid it. 

So a principled position - *ANY* principled position - would have worked out better rather than have all sides think he's a c**t.

[Mr.Tease]

This is my worry- this could have been our most realistic/safest hope of keeping freedom of movement and ensuring we only really have a brexit in name only. By not backing Common Market 2.0,  It leaves Ken Clarks custom's union only looking like the number one realistic option.

Now to keep freedom of movement, the only way is via either a second referendum, which I still think is the least risky strategy for the Tories (May might lose but it would avoid no deal brexit and would stop the Tory party splitting because at the end of the day the public decided to revoke rather than the Tories, or May's deal might win), but that's risky for remainers (as they may lose, in which case you lose customs union AND freedom of movement.

Other alternative is general election, in which it will be tough for either party to adopt as soft a brexit proposal as Common Market 2.0, and even if Labour does, there's a good chance an ERG led Tory party would win.

I don't think it's worth the risk- should have gone for Common Market 2.0 last night.

Now it's looking like the EU will ultimately make the decision to get out of this stalemate for us- if/when May asks for a long extension, the EU will decide whether that's dependent on a second referendum, a general election, or there's a chance they're so fed up with us, they won't grant it at all.

 

Edited April 2, 2019 by Mr.Tease

[Mr.Tease]

1 minute ago, eFestivals said:

that might have been the strategy, but it's a shit strategy. It's not like the people who don't want FoM will think "oh, it's OK, Labour didn't really have a choice".  

Jez might be enjoying those splinters up his arse, but the simple fact is before the end of this process he's going to have to get off the fence and at that point he loses a big chunk of voters - forever.

There's no avoiding it. There's never been a way to avoid it. 

So a principled position - *ANY* principled position - would have worked out better rather than have all sides think he's a c**t.

They have got off the fence- voted for a second referendum and also Common Market 2.0, and it hasn't triggered a big backlash (If the poll at the weekend was right), which kind of vindicates the strategy (Tories took all the heat the last few days)- now labour can say they've had to compromise because of the situation/lack of time and options, rather than looks like they were trying to wreck it from the start.

[eFestivals]

3 minutes ago, Mr.Tease said:

They have got off the fence- voted for a second referendum and also Common Market 2.0

but not the backstop-against-no-deal.

Jez wouldn't compromise on that - despite claiming that stopping no-deal is the most important of all - so it's a bit rich to criticise others for the same.

And the fact is that any CU/SM arrangement is shitter than remain. Even most of the ERG are saying that.

[eFestivals]

6 minutes ago, Mr.Tease said:

now labour can say they've had to compromise because of the situation/lack of time and options, rather than looks like they were trying to wreck it from the start.

yep, because Jez thinks the electorate aren't as smart as him and won't realise what he's been up to. 

I have some news. 

Edited April 2, 2019 by eFestivals

[Mr.Tease]

5 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

but not the backstop-against-no-deal.

Jez wouldn't compromise on that - despite claiming that stopping no-deal is the most important of all - so it's a bit rich to criticise others for the same.

And the fact is that any CU/SM arrangement is shitter than remain. Even most of the ERG are saying that.

The key is to not look like you're trying to thwart brexit (while trying to thwart brexit)- as soon as you look like you're trying to thwart it, that unites the Tories and brexiteers. As it is, and up until now, the brexiteers and the Tories are at war with each other, which stops them uniting, thus weakening the chances of brexit.

[Mr.Tease]

7 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

yep, because Jez thinks the electorate aren't as smart as him and won't realise what he's been up to. 

I have some news. 

Well, you cannot seem to make up your mind- one minute you're saying 'Jezza' wants brexit, now your saying no one will think that because they'll see through his tactics. Seems to have worked quite well!

 

[eFestivals]

2 minutes ago, Mr.Tease said:

The key is to not look like you're trying to thwart brexit

who do you think he's fooling...?  

[Mr.Tease]

Just now, eFestivals said:

who do you think he's fooling...?  

the consensus for weeks has been "Jezza secretly wants brexit', so it's actually seems to have worked

[eFestivals]

Just now, Mr.Tease said:

the consensus for weeks has been "Jezza secretly wants brexit', so it's actually seems to have worked

what do you think Labour's deal is? Brexit or no brexit?

There's a clue when Jez starts talking about "a" and not "the". 

So he's fooled you, but not the people that fooled you thinks he's fooled.  

[eFestivals]

3 minutes ago, Mr.Tease said:

Well, you cannot seem to make up your mind- one minute you're saying 'Jezza' wants brexit, now your saying no one will think that because they'll see through his tactics. Seems to have worked quite well!

 

*EVERYONE* is seeing thru his tactics. Except you (and the cultists) by the look of things.

People like me are backing Jez not because I'm thinking his tactics are going to work out how he wants, but because they probably won't; plus of course it's the only other game in town realistically.

[Mr.Tease]

2 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

*EVERYONE* is seeing thru his tactics. Except you (and the cultists) by the look of things.

 

They really aren't- do people think Labour are trying to thwart brexit or do they think they really want it?

[Sasperella]

42 minutes ago, Mr.Tease said:

They have got off the fence- voted for a second referendum and also Common Market 2.0, and it hasn't triggered a big backlash (If the poll at the weekend was right), which kind of vindicates the strategy (Tories took all the heat the last few days)- now labour can say they've had to compromise because of the situation/lack of time and options, rather than looks like they were trying to wreck it from the start.

I think you're right on both this, and Labour having to make it look like they're trying to thwart Brexit. 

People that want labour to come out hard in favour of remain, even if we lose half the voters, don't seem to care that a) these are traditional voters were talking about, which should mean something, and b) these voters are only going to get pushed to the far right, which absolutely no one wants

I think everyone needs to realise Brexit, either way, is not the be all and end all. A good compromise is the best way forward, and I actually think Labour's policy of quietly going along doing that was tactically the best one. You only have to look at the Lib Dems to realise Brexit isn't the ONLY thing people care about, but if you start ignoring huge chunks of your voters, you're fucked

There is no simple solution. Reading some of these comments you'd think it was. Plenty of Labour MPs have threatened to leave the cabinet/resign if they're forced to support a second referendum or revoke. It's as toxic for labour as it is for the Tories, and all we should really be hoping for at this point is getting out the other side with something that resembles social cohesion.

[eFestivals]

27 minutes ago, Mr.Tease said:

They really aren't- do people think Labour are trying to thwart brexit or do they think they really want it?

they think Corbyn doesn't give much of a shit - about brexit or the country - in his aim to force a GE.

But they also know that Jez personally wants brexit and would much prefer that was how it went between the two. The only people ever seen saying different are the cultists.

And most people are wise to the particular things Jez wants from brexit, the right to give subsidies to failing businesses. Stuff like FoM, jobs and the economy isn't on his radar (if it was there'd have been none of the "a" stuff).

Edited April 2, 2019 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

4 minutes ago, Sasperella said:

these voters are only going to get pushed to the far right

then they're not traditional Labour voters, or at least they're not ones that any rational argument is going to sway.

[eFestivals]

7 minutes ago, Sasperella said:

There is no simple solution. Reading some of these comments you'd think it was.

there is. A principled one (much too late now tho, Corbyn has shown his only principle is to try and flatter his vanity).

You know, like those tory MPs are who are prepared to go against their party to avoid a shit brexit.

Trying to game it is the same as the ERG are doing. That gets seen for what it is, and the same is true for labour.

Edited April 2, 2019 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

9 minutes ago, Sasperella said:

we should really be hoping for at this point is getting out the other side with something that resembles social cohesion.

requires a cohesive position regarding brexit it. The fudges that both the tories and laboiur are trying to work can never be that, meaning we won't get that social cohesion.

And most particularly if we leave with a CU (or version of). That's the outcome which ensures that the open-sore of brexit lasts longest.